It's OK.... They're Criminals.

I'm delighted to have found your blog. I am an adoptive mom of two Chinese girls. I have fallen in love with China over the past five years, the more time I spend there, the more time I want to spend there. Its a complicated relationship I've carved out with China, I'm so grateful for my kids, I'm outraged by the politics that created them, I love the grit and filth of the city streets and could bike for hours and hours there, although my blonde head has probably caused a few people to fall off their bikes. Stares and stairs and more stares :) Here I wish for there and there I can never quench my need for it.

Anyhow, I'm pleased to have found another who has a complicated relationship with China and look forward to reading more.

And then you get that guy from the Pentagon here in the US (who just resigned) who makes it seem as though the lawyers who represent those at Guantanamo are corrupt and anti-American. Same sort of tactic. Fortunately, the US legal system is generally trusted enough so that most people (even the most tough on crime, like me) realize that the key to the system is that even a completely guilty low-life scum deserves legal representation and a fair trial. Indeed, it is more important that person have it than anyone else.

Why didn't these people just get passports and cross the border like normal people? China certainly has some problems with civil liberties, but freedom to travel is not one of them. China freely grants passports to any citizens that request one. Likewise, China does not require exit visas for its citizens. I am willing to bet a dollar that these "refugees" were up to no good.

It is not illegal to have a picture of the Dalai Lama. In fact, I have even seen his picture published in the newspaper. If there is a law or regulation that prohibits his picture, I challenge you to show it to me. Likewise, show me the law or regulation that prohibits Tibetans from passing on their traditional culture.

Tibetans certainly have been mistreated, but it would be foolish to take all of their claims at face value. They have a clear and strong incentive to make the Chinese government look as bad as possible.

Some things in CHina really are bad, but they are not as bad as the Tibetans and Falun Gong people would have you believe.

Actually you're 100% wrong here, I'm afraid.

Beijing considers Tibetan's meeting the Dali Lama or undergoing a traditional Tibetan education to be both a separatist and a nationalist activity that harms China's security and interests.

Thus, Chapter 2, article 5 (citing chapter 2 article 8 clause 5) of "the law of the People's Republic of China on the control of the exit and entry of citizens" allows Beijing to deny exit rights to any Tibetan who is even suspected of the above activities.

If you want to see laws prohibiting anything in Tibet, just look at the Chinese security laws, as above, the simply define these things as being separatist or nationalist and ban them, they don't need any specific laws.

You are either incredibly naive, or are trying to provoke a fight. I suggest that you try to obtain a transcript of a Canadian independent film called "What remains of us", it will explain things to you.

I also suggest that you read the official Chinese account of events. Beijing publicly states that these people's "crime" was to attempt to leave China without state permission. No other reason is given.

China has invaded a country that is not there's In my own humble opinion china should leave Tibet. Anyway China is already rich they don't need a poor and isolated region, what china needs right now is more consumers to buy their products.

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The fact is that the horror stories that the Tibetans and Falun Gong tell simply don't square with what I see every day in China. To be honest, it seems that many of China's critics are eager to make things up and many people around the world are eager to believe them. There are some bad things happening here, but not nearly as nasty as the anti-China crowd would have you believe.

As for the law you mentioned, nearly every country, including the United States, can revoke or deny the passports for the activities mentioned in the statute. Can you show some evidence that the Chinese are actually unreasonably denying large numbers of Tibetans passports?

What evidence do you have that the Chinese government prevents the Tibetans from passing on their traditional culture?

The fact is that you, as a foreigner, are in no position to know what's happening thousands of miles away in an isolated region of a country where the state controls the media. CCTV9 are hardly going to advertise what they are doing doing, are they?

As for proof, what proof do you want? Again, I suggest that you look up "What remains of us" You won't be able to get the actual video, but you will find a lot of useful information. I also suggest that you look up the dispute over the 11th incarnation of the Panchen Lama.

If you don't trust pro-Tibetan organizations, how about the British state media. They are the most respected broadcaster in the world.

A Tibetan discussing the imposition of Han culture (re-education) and escape to India http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4946414.stm

A Tibetan discussing torture http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4618775.stm

I live in China, and while I have not traveled to Tibet yet, I have been to nearly every other part of the country. I also happen to speak quite good Chinese and consume as much Chinese-language media as I can. I'm in just as good of a position (probably a better position) to understand this country as a human rights activist or reporter from the BBC.

As for the BBC and other western news organizations, I find their reporting about China to be very disappointing. Almost all of their sources are part of the anti-China crowd and have a financial and political interest in making the situation here look as bad as possible. News outfits like BBC and CNN have a very bad habit of accepting whatever these folks have to say without any critical examination. Just look at those articles you linked to. Everything that the subjects claim is taken at face value. It's just plain bad journalism.

I will give you a small example. Independence activists in Xinjiang make a big stink about Chinese "oppression." According to them, the evil CCP has turned Xinjiang into one of the outer circls of hell. Yet, when I went there, I found people openly displaying the picture of East Turkestan's president (Xinjiang was briefly independent after World War II, prior to the PRC's invasion), openly discussing the future of Xinjiang, freely practicing their religious beliefs, and basically living life they way they want to live it.

I am familiar with the PRC's interference with Tibet's religious affairs. They shouldn't be doing that. However, the PRC's regulation of religion is a far cry from the type of oppression claimed by human rights activists, seperatists, and dissidents.

I was actually responding to another user but most of my points still stand.

You are a foreigner living in a very restricted county. The locals often won't tell you how bad things are because they will loose face (pride in China often trumps dissatisfaction with their lot), or they will sugar coat things a bit for fear of being found out.

Equally, the media is state controlled and what you see on the news is very one sided. For example, CCTV will tell you how much Tibet is prospering, but it doesn't tell you that most of these new jobs and the improved GDP are actually in the hands of Han migrants, not local Tibetans.

The BBC is actually very good and mostly accurate, though CNN is very bad. It is because of media like CNN that many bloggers such as myself started blogging.

You say that you haven't been to Tibet yet, well, I suggest that you try. Access is restricted. In addition to your Chinese visa, you need to get an "alien travel permit" from they Tibet tourism bureau. You are forbidden from touring independently and must register either as part of a recognized Chinese tour group or with a local tour agency.

If you stray into "unopened area", or start asking too many questions, you will be removed from Tibet.

Well, I am definitely going to Tibet at some point in the near future. I plan on asking lots of questions. It will be interesting to see what happens.

"You are a foreigner living in a very restricted county. The locals often won't tell you how bad things are because they will loose face (pride in China often trumps dissatisfaction with their lot), or they will sugar coat things a bit for fear of being found out."

Well, I would not say that China is completely free, but I also would not say it is "very restricted." I have been going everywhere I want to go, asking any questions I want to ask, and doing what I want to do for four years now. I've hooked up with all kinds of religious groups, dissidents, protesters, activists, intellectuals, and government officials. During these four years, I have only had one problem with the authorities and that was solved by deleting a picture of a "secret" building.

I do run into the "face" problem now and then, however many people here are also quite candid about the problems they have. Some fools from foreign affairs offices will often try to put a happy face on everything, but most people don't. In any event, even if people don't say that things are not going poorly, the truth is readily apparent from their living conditions. There is also another thing you may not have thought of. Many Chinese people simply have lower standards, especially with regard to safety and human rights, than we do. If someone has no idea that something is bad, they have no way to complain about it.

I couldn't agree with you more on that last point. I wasn't born on the Mainland so I'm use to different standards, but many Mainlanders don't know any different.

This is especially evident, as you said with H&S and human rights. Most Mainlanders have no idea that things can be extremely free and still be well ordered.

Well the same thing applies to leaders. Because of my work, I have had the chance to make friends with lots of local officials. I think the biggest obstacle to implementing better protections for human rights is that leaders simply do not understand the concept or importance of human rights and the rule of law.

Well said, Jerome Cole; I agree with you in most of your observations about China. I also appreciate your objectivity and integrity in the issues concerned here. From what the angry Chinese blogger said in this writing, I can make sure that Mr./Ms.Angry is not living in China for the time being. While commenting Tibet and China/Chinese government, you ignored or left out most facts that will contradict your presumptuous claim of China being "very restricted." It is therefore not surprising that you can so easily and irresponsibly blow smoke about Tibetans lacking freedom to learn and preserve their traditional culture, foreigners being restricted to travel to Tibet, .... Mr.Angry's blogged angry in cyber space seems to me quite tricky. You mislead people in thinking you might be living in China or should be a Chinese by your various hints at your blog. In so doing, you try acquiring the legitimacy in making presumpuous claims as a seemingly angry blogger who is concerned about China. This sounds quite a hypocrite's blogging behavior.

Would you like to see my ID card?

Please check with the Tibetan tourist board for details on the restrictions facing foreigners entering Tibet. They have English language pamphlets which you may use to verify everything that I've said.

Anon

In order to be reading my blog, you are breaking Chinese law. This means that you are either a law breaking Chinese, or are a foreigner.

The issue of Tibet is very Complex. Suffice to say that when I sympathize the Tibetans, I support all necessary actions taken by the China centre government to keep Tibet an integral part of China. I also submit that Tibetans are not worse off than under the rulership of the Lama. Readers might want to read the following links.

http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html

The blogger's stand on Tibet has made me dispute his (or her) objectivity. If the blogger has actually been to Tibet, I would like to hear a firsthand account.

Lastly, I am neither from China nor any part of the western countries. I have been exposed to all the western side of the stories but none from China side besides all their official statements. Yet, I found the western reports dubious. By my (somewhat simplistic) view, if life is that unsatisfactory under the China government's rule, we should be seeing mass revolt by now. Yet we see a few authors, whom, you must admit, can be easily bought, writing about dissatisfied Tibetans. Not very convincing.

I will ask one question. Each year, several several thousand Tibetans leave/try to leave. Among their primary stated reasons are that they want to obtain a traditional Tibetan religious education in India which they can't receive in Tibet.

Why do you think this is?