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Shame-nesty International: Or, "why NGOs don't do themselves any favors"

posted Monday, 12 May 2008


As long term readers of this blog will know, when it comes to China - and the many and varied human rights abuses that go on within its borders - ACB has some strong opinions over the various issues, but little time for the Big Media, and even less time for Western NGOs, when they become interested in said abuses.

True, the Big Media and Western NGOs can reach big audiences, and can apply political leverage to their own governments to do something, which can be useful. Sometime they can even make a real different.

However, ACB finds that for ever instance where the Big Media and Western NGOs can make the human rights situation in China better, there are 10 where they make them worse. The latter of which they usually achieve by (as ACB's foreign friends might say) "putting their mouths in gear, but leaving their brains in neutral": Deploying emotive arguments to grab people's attention, rather than intelligent arguments to stimulate much needed debate.

At best they tend to makes themselves look like stupid bandwagon jumpers to anybody with actual subject knowledge, and at worst they antagonize Beijing and turn the Chinese people against them. Making a bad situation worse by creating local animosity instead  of solidarity.

Why?

"What provokes this sudden outburst?" You may well ask. Well, it's simple. A day or so ago ACB was contacted by a representative (whom shall remain nameless) of a well known Western NGO (Amnesty international, to be specific), who kindly proffered a code sample that would let let this blogger embed Amnesty's latest video in this blogger's blog.

Needless to say, ACB watched said video and was less than impressed. More than that, ACB was would go so far as to say that was is one of the worst examples of an NGO video that they have ever seen, an active demonstration of how not to do things. It was so bad that ACB considers it to be an insult to the cause that it is trying to promote.

The Video?

To be fair to Amnesty, it's best that readers view the video for themselves before they go any further.


 If the embedded code doesn't work with your browser, please click here.

The Issue?

Question: What does this video actually tell us about the Sino-Tibetan situation, about the use of torture in China, about recent events in Tibet, or even about the Olympic controversy?

Answer: Nothing. It's worse than useless. In fact, it's an outright danger to Western credibility.

This video appear to be designed appeal to easily lead foreigner looking for a bandwagon to jump onto, oh, and to scare small children, too. Instead of educating the viewer about the situation in Tibet it goes for emotional impact. All emotive blather and no substance.

The transition from scenes of torture to the Flame of Shame - the handing over of the baton from torturer to runner - in particular is 100% shameless. It relies on the readers association of issues rather than their knowledge of events (in essence, their ignorance of both historic and contemporary issues). It glosses over what is really going on and instead draws links between China's actions in Tibet and the Olympics itself, despite there being no links other than those created by fact that the two are happening concurrently.

The video itself doesn't give any background details, none whatsoever. Making it next to useless when the viewer is trying to construct a well reasoned argument or to form an educated opinion.  In fact it doesn't even give the viewer anything that they can Google to look up somebody else's well reasoned arguments or educated opinions.

ACB can just see the conversation now on some message board, somewhere in cyberspace

Foreigner: China tortures people
Fenqing: Prove it. Who are they? What are their names? Why were they being tortured? Who was doing the torturing? Where is the evidence?
Foreigner:  er....
I don't know.. They were pink. they looked like a stuffed animal..... China is bad .... it tortures people...... Tibet... torture...... Olympic Games......
Fenqing: 你说什么,你在吃药吗?
Foreigner: er..... um... Amnesty International said so...... it must be true...... whaaaa I'm in over my head.
Fenqing:  操你, 外国人.

Worse still this video provides Fenqing with so much ammunition that it could have been written by them as a piece of false flag propaganda. Take, for example, the closing message: that Beijing tortures peaceful protesters. On this topic ACB will just say that even the slowest of Fenqing could point out, quite truthfully, that not only were the recent protests in Tibet anything but peaceful (Monks hurling brick were somewhat absent from the video), but that no Western country would tolerate such behavior within their own borders. In fact, the only way that a Fenqing could fail to tear this video to pieces would be if they can't read sufficient English or Chinese to understand what is going on.

At best this video tells the foreign viewer that China tortures Tibetans with electric cattle prods (even then it fails to distinguish between China and Beijing). At worst it will simply convince Chinese that the West is filled with ignorant foreigners who neither know nor care about Chinese issues, but who are intent on painting China in as bad a light as possible.

The only way get the message out is with facts and evidence. The testimony of torture victims. Video taps of oppression taking place. Hard facts about what is being done, why it is being done, and who it is being done to. The Amnesty video is lacking all of these.

Fenqing should have to work to deny the truth, they shouldn't just be able to sit back and let the Big Media and Western NGOs discredit themselves.

 

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1. Dan left...
Monday, 12 May 2008 3:17 am

I agree. It's worse than bad. It's terrible. Today we'll call them Sham-nasty. You were right not to post it. But then you did! Well, yes, just to show just how bad it is.


2. ACB left...
Monday, 12 May 2008 5:16 am

Ironically, I actually started off calling this entry Shamnesty International (if you look at the file name, you will see that is is still called this), but I decided against it as it implied that the article was about fackery or fraud, when it is just about a really really bad video that they should be ashamed of.

On the subject of the video, yes, I chose to include it. I felt that to criticize it without showing it would make me as bad as Beijing which regularly speaks out against things while denying people the opportunity to see things fo rthemselves and to make up their own minds.


3. Rudy left...
Monday, 12 May 2008 8:52 am :: http://www.viewonbuddhism.org

Well, it seemed to me that the message is kept very simple, but maybe still too complicated for you? What do you expect? That the Chinese allow camera teams into the prisons so Amnesty can show what they are doing? Please if you can get videos, photos or testimonies, you are more then welcome to share them, but as you may know, access to Tibet is nearly impossible at the moment. It is a bit overly simple just to criticize them for trying something alternative.


4. maxiewawa left...
Monday, 12 May 2008 10:58 am :: http://www.maxiewawa.com

I can't see the video :( I've downloaded the latest flash but no luck. Even tried a proxy, and nothing. I can picture what it's like, but I wish I could see it for myself. I think that's ACB's whole point, anyway, that I shouldn't take ANYONE's word for it, but see it for myself.

So I'm going to just hold judgement on the whole Amnesty International thing until I see the video first hand. - Angry Foreign Poster


5. Windswing left...
Monday, 12 May 2008 12:11 pm

Rudy, Having no access to the truth is no excuse to fabricating or fantasizing about the "truth". Trying sth alternative is ok, but making things up or jumping to conclusions is not. As far as I know, TAR has been open to Chinese tourists since May 1. Selected overseas media now have limited access.


6. Victoria left...
Monday, 12 May 2008 6:34 pm

Hi ACB. I'm in New York. I like your blog. I know Americans only see a little bit of the real situation and China is a getting a bad rap. But I think I can explain the American anger of China's treatment of the Tibetan protesters. We did see images of monks rioting. We know that they started it, and some were out to physically harm Chinese people as well as property. It was the massive response that alarmed us. We heard about people getting shot on the spot. Then hundreds, maybe thousands were rounded up. Some protesters there have gotten years of prison. It's extreme. Here, even with violent protests, such harsh response isn't allowed. It's happened that protesters here have been killed by police/army but it's rare. People go to jail here--if they've caused harm they could go for a long time, but to just get arrested at a protest, they spend one night there.

People here know the Olympics have nothing to do with the riots and Tibet. They feel the only way they can protest the Chinese government's repression of Tibet (and other minorities in other provinces such as Uighur) is by protesting the Olympics. There's a long history of politics getting wound up in the Olympics. People here also are angry over U.S. corporate sponshorship of the Games because they feel the money is going to the Chinese government. The Dalai Lama is very popular here.

Please don't think that most people who protest are preoccupied with China--protesters here tend to go to a lot of protests about many different causes. They usually don't have a strong grasp of the details of any one thing, but they have a strong sense of justice and wanting to change things. Please don't think they're bad people. They're out protesting Bush, the Iraq War, and other bad things. They aren't anti-China, they just think the government is repressive. The news does report on how people in China feel about them--your blog for example. I'm half-Chinese and have relatives in China and I've lived there. I do see you point of view and I'm hoping that you can see ours.


7. Tenzin left...
Tuesday, 13 May 2008 8:23 pm

Read these and you will know the Tibetan side of the story....there is also a report on torture in China by the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, Manfred Nowark. U can find the report if you search for it on www.ohchr.org

http://tchrd.org/publications/topical_reports/torture/torture.pdf http://tchrd.org/press/2008/pr20080505.html http://tchrd.org/press/2008/pr20080502.html http://tchrd.org/press/2008/pr20080409.html


8. ACB left...
Wednesday, 14 May 2008 3:51 am

Rudy:

"it seemed to me that the message is kept very simple"

Leaving out the detail isn't quite the same thing as keeping it simple.

"What do you expect? That the Chinese allow camera teams into the prisons so Amnesty can show what they are doing?"

Enough footage has been smuggled out to meet Amnesty's needs. Enough people have been smuggled out, too. Equally, it's not just the prisons where this goes on. Remember a while back when that foreign hiker in Nepal filmed a Mainland sniper picking off refuges on the side of a mountain.

"Please if you can get videos, photos or testimonies, you are more then welcome to share them"

Visit your local Tibetan community center. They will share their stories with you first hand.

"access to Tibet is nearly impossible at the moment."

The Han occupation is decades old. Last years photos are just as much evidence as photos from last week would be.

"It is a bit overly simple just to criticize them for trying something alternative."

One of the biggest problems with this is that they are not trying something "alternative" they are trying something intellectually dishonest. Amnesty are banking on the fact that if they repeat "Tibet" and "Olympics" enough in the same sentence people will mentally form links that aren't there because people don't know enough about either to mentally separate them.

It's like repeating "Homosexual" and "Pedophile" in the same sentence, or touring the country and making speeches where ever other phrase includes the words "Iraq" and "9/11". If you keep it up for long enough people will start to believe that homesexuals are child abusers, or that Saddam Husein was involved in 9/11.


9. Ansiwen left...
Wednesday, 14 May 2008 7:06 pm

I just saw the video for the first time, and I like it. It just says that the Chinese government organizes and celebrates the Olympic Games in the name of harmony while at the same time it tortures and harasses people only for standing up for human rights in China (who are the REAL patriots, if you ask me). There is absolutely nothing specific about the Tibet conflict. It doesn't make a difference between tortured Hans and tortured Tibetans. Or do you want to say that stuffed pig - or whatever it is - looks like a Tibetan?

Man, it is a TV spot, not a documentary! It's only goal is to attract people to the issue. There is no place for facts or education or explanation. How can you expect to put this into a 40 second spot? If you want this I'm afraid you have to read the reports of Amnesty.

And I think it is mainly aimed for westerners, to make them not forget during the Olympic events that the nice impressive buildings and celebrations are build on a base of suffer and torture. It adresses their bad conscience.


10. Chris left...
Thursday, 15 May 2008 1:18 am

"Remember a while back when that foreign hiker in Nepal filmed a Mainland sniper picking off refuges on the side of a mountain."

A quick internet search didn't turn up any such reports, only reports of a sniper guard existing. Can you post some link to this?


11. dave zimmerman left...
Thursday, 15 May 2008 5:11 am

Chris:

Here's your link. I don't do sound on my PC, so I can't vouch for the commentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgadUdNcRZU&feature=related

I have a feeling that ACB isn't too sure of the provenance either, or we would have discussed this before.


12. The Angry Chinese Blogger left...
Friday, 16 May 2008 3:47 am

"the Chinese government organizes and celebrates the Olympic Games in the name of harmony while at the same time it tortures and harasses people only for standing up for human rights in China"

The UK government has the games next, and it's complicit in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and all of those prisoner abuse scandals. I await Amnesty internationals video linking the UK to the torture of Iraqis.

"There is absolutely nothing specific about the Tibet conflict."

Don't you mean occupation?

"It doesn't make a difference between tortured Hans and tortured Tibetans."

Since the guy at the beginning is holding up a banner about Tibet, the odds are that he's Tibetan.

"do you want to say that stuffed pig - or whatever it is - looks like a Tibetan?"

Why would a Han hold up a placard about torture in Tibet?

"It's only goal is to attract people to the issue"

That's what the hyperlink should do. The video should aim to educate them.

"there is no place for facts or education or explanation"

So, facts don't matter, just so long as Amnesty gets it's subscriptions up?

"How can you expect to put this into a 40 second spot?"

Give me a 40 second spot and I could give you a montage that demonstrate how all of the "improvements" that Beijing bands about in order to justify the occupation of Tibet apply primarily to Han migrants, and not to the native people. To me, that would be 40 seconds better spent than on Amnesty's exercise in trivialization.

"the nice impressive buildings and celebrations are build on a base of suffer and torture"

Ah, so now we get down to it. Amnesty and the like have already gotten to you. You're making mental links that don't exist because you've heard people reciting "torture" and "Olympics" in the same sentence. Could you please back up your last sentence with an actual example of how the games are built on a base of suffering and torture? While Beijing has done some pretty bad things in relation to the Olympics (All of those eminent domain seizures, for example), the games are not based on any such thing. The games and the torture are happening at the same time, but only a fraction of the cases are even remotely related. Most of the suffering and torture would happen without the games, and vice versa.

"it is mainly aimed for westerners"

You think?


13. The Angry Chinese Blogger left...
Friday, 16 May 2008 4:02 am

dave zimmerman:

I'm 100% certain of the provenance. I believe that it is genuine and shows exactly what it appears to show. A column of refugees being fired on by a sniper in the pay of Beijing. Whether or not they are Han I can't say for certain. But the odds are in favor of such a presumption, though it doesn't really matter as their action is representative of Beijing, not the wider Han people.


14. dave zimmerman left...
Friday, 16 May 2008 7:50 am

I love it when we agree on something, but it usually turns out that when I'm susceptible to doubt, you are certain, and when I'm certain...

It seems that you are saying that the culprits were mountaineers themselves, rather than Han. I'll buy that. While I do know of herbal formulas that PLA issues its troops in TAR, I don't think that PLA would be suitable for mountain patrols; mountain folk (posssibly even Tibetan collaborators) are much more suitable, acclimatized and knowledable . So, if these are the people involved, how is it that the fortuitous (as in, it could only happen in Charles Dickens novel) arrival of a Roumanian climbing team was not noticed by the patrol? From what I have heard about ambushes (never been on either end of one) , if they are set up by pros, the locations is thoroughly cased before the deed is done.

If your apply the same critical judgement that should have been applied by the makers of the advertisement in question, you get the impression of a much more inflammatory image with more seeming credibility. But my opinion is that PR folks have to eat, too, and true belivers of any stripe will do anything for a cause


15. dave zimmerman left...
Saturday, 17 May 2008 6:31 am

I withdraw my previous comment. My cynicism got the better of me. What made me change my mind? The fact that Xinhua claims it was self defense. I apologize.


16. ACB left...
Saturday, 17 May 2008 7:18 pm

dave zimmerman:

"it usually turns out"

It wasn't reported on much in the Western media (and not at all in the Mainland media), but the refugees in the video eventually made it to their destination and were interviewed about their experience. I have no doubts because the stories that I heard were down to Earth and come from identifiable people. There was a lot of room plausible sounding exaggerations but the accounts that I've seen were straightforward and simple. Basically, the story of a procession of people taking a half dozen shots from a sniper as they crossed through a mountain pass. Just as was seen on the video.

"It seems that you are saying that the culprits were mountaineers themselves, rather than Han"

I was blaming those directly involved in the shooting, as opposed to saying that one Han with a gun made the entire Han people murderers.

"From what I have heard about ambushes"

There are a couple of possible answer to this one. Firstly, that the shooter wasn't concerned about being seen. He believed that he was doing his job and that he was firing on criminals (under the Chinese system, fleeing Tibet to get a traditional Tibetan religious education in India, or anywhere else, is a crime). Secondly, it might not have been a professional ambush. The sniper might just have been a routine patrolman who saw some refugees and fired on them under basic orders. No big conspiracy, just a random encounter on a route with regular patrols. If a US border patrol comes across a group of suspected drugs smugglers on the US-Mexican border and shoots a couple of them dead in front of a tourist camera, but they turned out just to be illegal immigrant, I'm certain that the word ambush wouldn't come to your mind. It's just that you've gotten used to thinking of Beijing as being competently sneaky, rather than just routinely callous.


17. dave zimmerman left...
Sunday, 18 May 2008 7:35 am

This is what I did find out after a google search that included the words "roumanian - tibet - video" (I think - trry it).

My vision of the setting was colored, I am afraid, by the movie "Lost Horizon", but it seems that the Himalayas during of the climbing season is only slightly less crowded than. The Roumanian who shot the video was about a kilometer from the scene, and the shots were heard at the base camp further down the slope. Some time later, the survivors (two were killed; about twenty arrested) came through the base camp, and some time later, a PAP patrol in pursuit.

After the people from the base camp got back to Kathmandu, one of the witnesses, a British poloceman from Bristol, was called into the Chinese Embassy, and pressured to keep quiet about what he had seen. He gave an inteview in his home newspaper when he got home.

But, as I said, the one fact that convinced me was that Xinhua issued a statement claiming that the PAP acted in self defence. It was reported in the Western media on October 16, 2006, but to try to get to the original source, Chinaview.com (Xinhua in English), I found that there is no way on that website to do a search and no way to access archives. It's beenages since I read it, but didn't the protagonist of "1984" make his living rewriting the news archives? Maybe "julndi" can help me out on this.


18. julndy left...
Sunday, 18 May 2008 12:38 pm

Sorry, dave, can't help you there. I only saw that clip on youtube from the link you provided on this site. As I mentioned before, I have not read/watched any Chinese mainland's news reports for many many years until this earthquake happened. Just as you said Xinhua doesn't seem have archives, not even in its chinese language site either.

From what I saw from the clip, without any further background information, there are a several questions need to be clarified, before I can form any opinions.

1) Were this group of people crossing a border between China and Nepal?

2) if they were crossing the border, was it a legal crossing point or not?

3)What was/is the chinese law for illegal crossing its border? How long has this law been installed, has it be made known to general local population?

The reaction of those people were most extraordinary! After one got shot, they did not even break their neat line, no one run back and anything like that, they just carried on, step after step as nothing happened.

Although I have little knowledge regarding tibetan culture and religion, I did have chance to witness some of the rituals of tibetans pilgrims en route. The display of their deep faith is unquestionable. For a belief when life is eternal, each existence merely a passage, the end of one heralds a new beginning. Could such conviction, made them reacted the way as it has shown? If so, even an atheist like myself can appreciate it, and have profound respect to it.

Somehow I can't help the nagging of cynical thoughts. They knew exactly what was waiting them, that's why they did not panic, that's how they would get or create their 'refugee' status, by committing law breaching acts, they would get shot, hence they had to flee. All of it was calculated, and self inflicted by design.

Of course one can ask why such desperation? Well that's entirely another subject.

There are still 2 points I would like to propose: A) 'A column of refugee', ACB, how did you know they were refugees before bullets hit them? I am not suggesting they were human trafficking, drug smuggling or anything. From the clip all I saw was a group of people walking, no more information. While your definition of refugee may differ from mine, 'get a traditional Tibetan religious education in India' is the furthest stretch of the term of 'refugee' I ever could've imagined.

B) 'Under the Chinese system, fleeing... anywhere else, is a crime' What system you are referring? law, political, military chain of command, or social system? Chinese law is very much codified civil law(continental system),the lists are easy to understand. Leaving country without permission and documents is illegal whatever the reasons. I am sure it is internationally accepted practice; If talking about political policy, could you enlighten me which policy forbids/discourages tibetans seek education abroad?(One might needs to go to the institutions are recognized by the china education ministry, so the qualifications will be recognized in china when one choose to return). Or Chinese military force should not have patrol on its boarders even when china doesn't have accords with its neighboring countries on sharing open boarders like the EU, its boarder can be entered and exited at any point by will? Or each soldier should exercise with his own discretion on which and when an order should be followed?

I can only debate on the strategic level, not on the tactic level, due to lacking of access to facts and personal experience. However I would not dismiss evidence provided by any sources, I just wish to exam them with sound logic before believing it.


19. ACB left...
Sunday, 18 May 2008 6:31 pm

julndy:

I know your system of questioning of old, so I will answer it as such

1) Were this group of people crossing a border between China and Nepal?

Yes, they were crossing from Tibet to Nepal through the Nangpa La mountain pass

2)/3) If they were crossing the border, was it a legal crossing point or not?

Yes, there are legal crossing points, but this was not one. Tibetan refugees are not permitted to cross at legal border points because they do not possess valid travel papers. If they possesed valid travel papers then they would not be clasified as refugees.

They crossed this way because they were not able to cross legally. Beijing does permit legal travel between Tibet and Nepal/India, but it requires that travelers A) Have an aproved reason for travel B) return to Tibet within a fixed period C) leave sufficent security behind to garuntee that they will return (For example, a man may travel if he has several children who remain in Tibet, in order to demonstrate that he intends to return).

In most cases travel is only permitted for business reasons or to visit relatives in Nepal or Tibet (there are almost no Tibetan's wealthy enough to take foreign holidays so this one almost never happens). Travel specifically for religious education is not permitted as Beijing considers the education that they are seeking to be a seperatist/nationalist activity.

The general populous are aware that they are not allowed to travel legally for religious reasons, that is why they are force to risk their lives by hiking for several days through the snow.

4) "The reaction of those people were most extraordinary! After one got shot, they did not even break their neat line, no one run back and anything like that, they just carried on, step after step as nothing happened"

The snow in that region, at that time of year, is at best waste deep on foreigners. For a Tibetan that's almost chest height. You cannot just "run back" in waste deep snow, especially after you have been walking throug it for several days with minimal food and shelter.

You can stand still or you can trudge slowly onwards. In the long run both tactics will be just as effective against a sniper.

5) "The display of their deep faith is unquestionable. For a belief when...."

Ah, I know this line of parise, too, and I can see the knife blade quite clearly thank you very much. For readers who are not familiare with this tactic julndy is painting a picutre of Tibetans as being so stubornly devoted to their religion that they put their faith above the preservation of their own life. In essence that they are suicidally devoted to their faith.

If we were discussing FLG, julndy would be praising the woman who alledgedly cut herself open to find the inner "wheel", by saying that "her faith was so strong that .....", or praising their devotion to spritiual healing after they died after they refused basic medicine.

6) "Somehow I can't help the nagging of cynical thoughts. They knew exactly what was waiting them, that's why they did not panic, that's how they would get or create their 'refugee' status, by committing law breaching acts, they would get shot, hence they had to flee. All of it was calculated, and self inflicted by design."

Ah, I know this line of old, too, and I know that there's likely no reasoning with you on this. So, instead I willl address the readers directly by saying this: Beijing reduced the human rights of these people to such an extent that they found it intollerable. Beijing provided them with no legal means to change the human rights situation or to legally travel to a location with better human rights. Therefore the fault lies with Beijing.

Countless Jews risked life and limb to escape from Nazi Germany without legal paperwork. Does this mean that it was their own fault if they were caught and thrown into the death camps?

7) "Of course one can ask why such desperation? Well that's entirely another subject"

I believe that I've covered this one in previous entries. Something to do with an oppressive government and violations of their human rights, perhaps?

8) 'A column of refugee', ACB, how did you know they were refugees before bullets hit them.

I did not even know that these people existed before the bullets hit. My visibility at the time would have made me a danger to them. Like most people I was informed after the fact.

9) "From the clip all I saw was a group of people walking, no more information"

The refugees were identified upon arrival at a refugee transit center in Kathmandu, from where they moved on to Dharamsalam in India. Information about them was gathered after the shooting. The video tap was just the icing on the cake. It confirmed their version of events.

10) "What system you are referring?"

"Under the Chinese system" means exactly what it says on the lable.

As you noted, in China it is illegal to leave the country without permission, you must pass through an authorized border crossing point and possess either a passport or suitable papers. The rationale behind this is that you can't leave China without state permission and you can't enter China without state permission. It's as simple as that. This is not particularly outragous and is the case in many countries around the world, including democratic nations. It is only places like the EU where EU citizens may pass between member states without having to have papers, and the UK where anybody (even foreign nationals) may pass between member state without papers.

11) "If talking about political policy, could you enlighten me which policy forbids/discourages tibetans seek education abroad?"

Ah, more twistings of words. While Beijing does not forbide Tibetans from recieving education abroad (For example, a Tibetan music projidy may be actively encouraged to study classical music overseas), it does forbide them from recieving a traditional relgious education. This prohibition applies both in Tibet and abroad. Thus leaving Tibet to recieve a traditional Tibetan religious education is illegal, as if recieving a traditional religious education in Tibet, itself.

A traditional Tibetan religious education includes the teaching of devotion to the Dali Lama and the teaching that Tibet is divisible from China at a cultural, religious and historical level (if not at a geographical level, too). Such teachings are illegal on the Mainland under article 4 of the State Security Law of the People's Republic of China on the grounds that it incites sedition and seperatism (On the Mainland it is illegal to teach that Tibet, East Turkistan or Taiwan has a seperate identity from Beijing's China).

13) "One might needs to go to the institutions are recognized by the china education ministry"

We're not talking about a high school deploma here. We're talking about training to be a monk or a nun. As above, Beijing not only does not recognize such n education, it also bans it under anti sedition/seperatism laws.

14) "when one choose to return"

What about those who do not wish to return?

15) "Or Chinese military force should not have patrol on its boarders"

While China is permitted to have border guard, they are not permitted to fire on a person unless A) they are in imdediate danger B) they are protecting somebody else who is in imediate danger. By opening fire on the refugees, the border guards violated section 9 (Special Provisions) of the"Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials". Chinese border guards are also not permitted to open fire unless they have no other alternatives open to them. Given that the almost half of the refugees (one of whom later died in custody) were later intercepted by a foot patrol, Beijing had other options open to it.


20. KB left...
Sunday, 18 May 2008 7:32 pm

Hi ACB

the video you are talking about does not one time mention or refer to Tibet...maybe you are preoccupied by the subject but the video has a much broader message that..

torturing peaceful protesters - which the chinese authorities do (Yang Chunlin, Ye Guozhou etc) - is clearly NOT an Olympic value...true or false?

You also do not seem to realise that such short clips are designed to lead people to an organisations website..see the one at the end..there people can see more issues and facts and get involved in reasoned debate...

if the current chinese authorities, and their supporters...do not like this maybe they should torture less...


21. ACB left...
Sunday, 18 May 2008 7:41 pm

Maybe you should turn on your television.


22. julndy left...
Sunday, 18 May 2008 10:50 pm

ACB:

Brilliant, thank you for clarify my questions. As I said before, regarding that clip, it was my first time to view it, I didn't have any background information about it. If my way of think happens to be the same as others, well, it's just coincidence.

1) I did not know there was a difference between 'tibetan religious teaching' and any other religious teaching, as I know for a fact, there are Buddhist monks/nuns from mainland study aboard. I simply did not know what was the 'traditional Tibetan religious teaching' encompass. However, I would challenge your definition of 'traditional Tibetan religious teaching' is the 'teaching of devotion to the Dali Lama'. Dalai lama is only the leader of the yellow hat branch, for those belong to "flower hat" and "red hat", they don't devote to him, so their teaching should not regarded as traditional, or tibetan?

2) '... and I can see the knife blade quite clearly thank you very much..... being so stubornly devoted to their religion that they put their faith above the preservation of their own life. In essence that they are suicidally devoted to their faith...' no need to be sarcastic, although, I have a general bleak outlook regarding human nature, I happen to believe it is very noble to die for one's faith, for one's believes and convictions, I don't see it as foolishness and stubbornness, I think if one has a set of principals which are truly cherished beyond one's life, however those values are different from mine, I still have the outmost respect to it. It also echoes parts of my own personal view regarding life: mere existence has no meaning. No 'blade' sincerely. As for FLAG, after once accidently be directed to its european official website, just from its first 3 lines, I have formed my opinions about it despite had never heard of them before. You assume too much.

3) '....The refugees were identified upon arrival at a refugee transit center in Kathmandu, from where they moved on to Dharamsalam in India. Information about them was gathered after the shooting. The video tap was just the icing on the cake. It confirmed their version of events....' While I am not sure about the criteria of 'refugee', I never have imagined seeking 'education', any forms of education was one of them. The point I am stressing is their refugee status was solidified after the shooting, without it, they may be just classified as illegal immigrants. As you have mentioned the reason for those didn't run, I admit that I have overlooked the snow factor which made them impossible to run for lives.

3) '...Beijing reduced the human rights of these people to such an extent that they found it intollerable. Beijing provided them with no legal means to change the human rights situation or to legally travel to a location with better human rights. Therefore the fault lies with Beijing...' Yes, I would rather you say that, because I know it is accurate statement for the current situation. Never have I denied human rights abusing in China.

4) 'Countless Jews risked life and limb to escape from Nazi Germany without legal paperwork. Does this mean that it was their own fault if they were caught and thrown into the death camps?' who is twisting facts here? Are you saying Beijing has practiced a systematic ethnic cleansing in tibet? Hence your logic to use such comparison?

5)'What about those who do not wish to return?' then chinese education ministry's recognition will no longer relevant, it is out of china jurisdictions, simple.

6)'....the border guards violated section 9 (Special Provisions) of the"Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials". Chinese border guards are also not permitted to open fire unless they have no other alternatives open to them....' That's exactly what I was asking, a quote of chinese law. When a clear violation is committed, then whoever issued such chain of command, must be chased back at the highest level, to be court marshaled.

Just a technical blip, 'UK where anybody (even foreign nationals) may pass between member state without papers' were you referring crossing borders of scotland, welse, england and northen Ireland, or entrying UK from other countries, even EU member states? If it is the latter, then a valid passport/travel documents are needed, as the UK and republic of Ireland don't participate the schegen scheme, they have individual border controls.

I can't help noticing the accusing tone which permeates in your responding post. The repeating referr my 'old' thinking is rather odd, all I did was applying standard logic process, filtering a piece of information. The readiness to wage a personal accusation resonates something from a past era of china which not only my generation of mainlanders had no personal experiences of, also is very alien to me personally, which I could imagine of.


23. KB left...
Sunday, 18 May 2008 11:34 pm

turn on my TV....well we will not see the thousands of people in illegal detention will we ACB? many of them being tortured....my heart goes out to the victims of the earthquake, their families and the 1.4 billion people in china who rightly deserve basic human rights......yes there has been a terrible disaster in China but that should not stop organisations like AI working on behalf of people who should not be in prison and who should not be being tortured..every minute that goes by for them is a minute too long....so, while its only appropriate we remember and work for the victims of the earthquake we should never forget the people who are suffereing injustices at the hands of the chinese authorities...even if many people would like us to ACB......


24. ACB: left...
Monday, 19 May 2008 12:12 am

KB:

Actually, you do. You just have to watch the right channel.


25. KB left...
Monday, 19 May 2008 12:14 am

which one?


26. ACB: left...
Monday, 19 May 2008 1:09 am

1) There are many schools of Buddhism in the world, and many in China. The phrase "Tibetan Buddhism" is most commonly used as a reference to the Gelug-pa school of Buddhism, but can also refer to other schools which originated or which are predominant in Tibet (Most Westeners don't know the difference so when they talk about Tibetan Buddhism they mean Gelug-pa). However, "Traditional" means the teaching of any of these schools in their original form, as opposed to their modern form under Beijing which is significantly watered down so as to remove elements that encourage Tibetan nationalism or which encourage the belief that religious, cultural and historical distinctions exist between Tibet and China.

In short. When a Tibetans flees Tibet to India for a "traditional Religious Education" what they are seeking is an education in Tibetan Buddhism (Usually Gelug-pa, if they are headed for India) in a form that is prohibited by Beijing.

2) "no need to be sarcastic"

I wasn't

3) "I happen to believe it is very noble to die for one's faith, for one's believes and convictions"

So you may, but I've heard similar phraseology used as a booby trap all to often. Sooner or later somebody will walk right into it and will post something up criticizing the recipient as a religious fanatic. You are, of course, aware that your phraseology matches that used to praise Islamic suicide bombers?

4) "I am stressing is their refugee status was solidified after the shooting

This is normal. There are no pre-registration requirements in the laws governing refugee status ("United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees").

5) "without it, they may be just classified as illegal immigrants"

Not by Beijing. Only the receiving country may make such a determination. In this instance Nepal and then India were the receiving countries. both upheld refugee status. Beijing may classify an entrant as an illegal immigrant, but not an exciting refugee. Either way, it's not relevant to the situation. Under the "Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials", Beijing is not permitted to shoot illegal immigrants unless they pose an active threat to human life.

6) "Are you saying Beijing has practiced a systematic ethnic cleansing in tibet"

I wouldn't say that, but quite a few others would. Beijing is currently engaged in a significant program of population transfer under which it is offering Mainland Chinese incentive to move to Tibet. This program is accompanied by campaigns to modify Tibetan culture to bring it more into line with Han culture, and to remove from it nationalistic elements that encourage Tibetans to think of themselves as a separate people with a separate identity. This isn't ethnic cleansing as per Rwanda and the Balkans, so much as it is forced assimilation. If played through to its ultimate conclusion Tibet will be a majority Han province and the Tibetan people will be to an unsustainable level. I often refer to this as being cultural genocide. Other's may disagree about my definition, but I stand by it. Beijing learned this tactic from Japan and its occupation of Taiwan and Korea, and to a lesser extent from European colonization programs.

7) "whoever issued such chain of command, must be chased back at the highest level, to be court marshaled"

Can you honestly see that happening, ever? That kind of thing rarely even happens in Western countries.

8) "referr my 'old' thinking"

Sorry, you may have misunderstood, or I may simply have shown poor English. "Knowing something of old" is an English language idiom. It means "to be familiar with", or "to have past experience of". My meaning was no that your thinking was "old fasioned", but rather that I have encountered it prior and that I know what to expect.


27. ACB left...
Monday, 19 May 2008 1:18 am

KB:

I don't know who your cable supplier is? National Geographic and Discovery are always good. They come on most advanced cable packages. Else try PBS. It's hit an miss when they have the right documentaries on though. You can also try the BBC, they have recently set up a news and documentary archive but you need to have a proxy with a UK address in order to view them. Strangely, I also found that Aljazeera also had good coverage during the recent riots and torch fiasco, though you will probably have to look at their website as most cable providers and satellite companies refuse to carry it (It's free if you point your dish at the right satellite).


28. julndy left...
Monday, 19 May 2008 5:55 am

To ACB:

1) '...You are, of course, aware that your phraseology matches that used to praise Islamic suicide bombers' No, I was not, the phrase was used to explain my position under a specific context, if anyone would employ the common trick to misinterpret/misquote, I can't prevent that from happening.

2)'....This program is accompanied by campaigns to modify Tibetan culture to bring it more into line with Han culture, and to ....'.I don't believe using religion, ethnic differences as pretence to create divisions, it only promotes segreations, although they are the most common reasons for all class of divisions. I am pro-intergradation of all cultures, intergrading doesn't result in mono-culture. Lots of examples you mentioned is more due to the impact of free market economy than 'cultural genocide'. That's my stance.

'"..., to be court marshaled" Can you honestly see that happening, ever?' Yes, I can. But not for the reason as you expect, nor for the benefit of common people. It will happen because it is crucial for any ruling classes have some kind of self-correcting mechanism; It will happen because the integrity of military chains of command is essential for ruling classes' own interests and survival. Of course, it probably never will be known publicly.


29. schantz left...
Monday, 19 May 2008 3:48 pm :: http://arepublic.blogspot.com/

ACB, You have an interesting site. I was searching for a Chinese blogger that would be willing to stop by my site and answer my most recent Question Of The Week, dated 5/18/08. The video doesn't say much and if I do I might give up my answer to this weeks question before I meant to.

God Bless America, God Save The Republic.


30. ACB left...
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 3:30 am

julndy:

We're not talking integration, we're talking colonization. Colonization of somebody else's home.


31. dave zimmerman left...
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 4:47 am

Julndy:

Please take some time to think, and then tell us why Tibet is necessary to China.


32. julndy left...
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 9:00 pm

ACB:

Sign!! I thought we have established that the irreconcilable difference between us regarding the Tibet status through previous exchanging of posts; you believe it is under occupation, and I don’t. I assume that we carry on debates on the basis to leave this difference aside. That’s why I strict subjects only on the policy level, and be specific about which policy /law in question. My ‘…intergradations…’ was in responding to your ‘…… assimilation…’ if you keeping switch the discussion back to Tibet’s status which you and I fundamentally disagree, then any debates just run in circles, won’t you say??


33. Ansiwen left...
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 3:12 am :: http://blog.kaputtendorf.de

ACB:

"The UK government has the games next, and it's complicit in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and all of those prisoner abuse scandals. I await Amnesty internationals video linking the UK to the torture of Iraqis."

There is a huge difference in quantity of HR violations by UK and China (not in quality in single, though, in some cases). To compare it is shameless. And of of course AI has campaigns against the torture in the "war against terror".

"Since the guy at the beginning is holding up a banner about Tibet, the odds are that he's Tibetan."

This is just wrong. The banner says "Fight for Human Rights in China" in Chinese and "Human Rights for China" in English. That's it.

"Give me a 40 second spot and I could give you a montage that demonstrate how all of the "improvements" that Beijing bands about in order to justify the occupation of Tibet apply primarily to Han migrants, and not to the native people."

Then do it! Alternatives are always good.

"Could you please back up your last sentence with an actual example of how the games are built on a base of suffering and torture?"

With pleasure:

"To clear space for Olympic-related construction, thousands of civilian houses have been destroyed without their former owners being properly compensated. Brothers Ye Guozhu and Ye Guoqiang were imprisoned for a legal appeal after their house was forcibly demolished. Ye Guozhu has been repeatedly handcuffed and shackled, tied to a bed and beaten with electric batons. During the countdown to the Olympic Games he will continue to suffer from torture in Chaobei Prison in Tianjin.

It has been reported that over 1.25 million people have been forced to move because of Olympic construction; it was estimated that the figure would reach 1.5 million by the end of 2007. No formal resettlement scheme is in place for the over 400,000 migrants who have had their dwelling places demolished. Twenty percent of the demolished households are expected to experience poverty or extreme poverty. In Qingdao, the Olympic sailing city, hundreds of households have been demolished and many human rights activists as well as "civilians" have been imprisoned. Similar stories come from other Olympic cities such as Shenyang, Shanghai and Qinhuangdao"

This is a quote from an open letter of Hu Jia and Teng Biao, the former being imprisoned now. Read the whole text here in english:

http://china.hrw.org/press/news_release/the_real_china_and_the_olympics

or here in chinese:

http://blog.kaputtendorf.de/archiv/2008/04/25/the-real-china-and-the-olympi cs


34. ACB left...
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 3:58 am

Ansiwen:

"There is a huge difference in quantity of HR violations by UK and China"

To the individual, though, there is not all that much difference. The UK is a smaller country than China so naturally many things that it does will be on a smaller scale. This doesn't, however, make the individual act any less terrible.

"The banner says"

This is one part of a wider awareness campaign. It does not exist in isolation.

"Then do it! Alternatives are always good"

I couldn't do the subject justice.

"With pleasure"

You're doing the other comenter's work for them. I'm well aware of the scale of the human rights abuses with the games. This is standard practice on the Mainland. 10,000 families were forcibly relocated to build the Shanghai expressways, millions were relocated to build the Three Gorges. Even when the Great Wall was built countless people were relocated (this time, to wards the wall, not away from it).

To argue the other side, because somebody has to, I could counter by saying that many of the people who were relocated were relocated fro slum districts and were moved to modern apartments where they enjoy a higher standard of living with running water, safe electricity, and much greater protection from the heat of summer and the cold of winter. True, they didn't want to go, but many of them really do have a higher standard of living now (of course, higher also means high rise, and away from their traditional neighborhoods and way of life, and it does suck to be forced out like that which is why I don't agree with it).


35. kb left...
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 7:51 am

Hi ACB

can you see you may have rushed to judgement on the amnesty video? can you see its doing more than you gave it credit for? the video is clearly about engaging people who DO NOT know all the issues...something to engage them into the wider human rights issues..people who dont have the expertise that you have on the issues..


36. dave zimmerman left...
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 8:16 am

Julndy:

Here's an easier question for you.

The title of the highest ranking Chinese official in Tibet before 1912 was "amban". This word is from which language.

a). Mandarin

b). Tibetan

c). Manchurian

d) It is a fabrication of British Imperialists.


37. julndy left...
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 4:06 pm

dave: It is the C)!!! Have I just won a million dolllars???


38. julndy left...
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 5:13 pm

dave, answer A) is also correct, could you see the reason?


39. kb left...
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 7:17 pm

ACB

you have deleted all my posts...is this what happens when you are found out to be wrong ona topic such as your interpretation of amnestys video...you know you were wrong and thats why the posts were deleted....shameful


40. kb left...
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 7:18 pm

ignore my last comment...my posts have mysteriously reappreaed..sorry


41. dave zimmerman left...
Thursday, 22 May 2008 1:13 am

What you have wonis a way for youe government to save face by declaring that the expansionist periods in Chinese history were fuled by barbarian infiltrator dynasties posing as civilized Confucian-minded preservers of tranquility.


42. Ark left...
Thursday, 22 May 2008 3:17 am

LOL....I thought the clip was fairly humourous in its own right but then again, aren't FQ considered a problem themsevles? Taking a consistently PC approach towards these guys may lead them on the fantasy that they are entitled to a balance view simply because they are FQ and will do their usual thing when given the chance to do so, but how can we be sure that they will not behave like FQ even when presented with something PC? That's assuming that FQ aren't rational people =P


43. dave zimmerman left...
Thursday, 22 May 2008 3:33 am

The only possible reason could be that it is used as a loan word in Mandarin. Even then, it is pronounced differently. I did a quick canvas of five Mandarin speakers; none of them heard of the word. Two of them said that the word doesn't even sound like Mandarin.

There is a really handy site - http://www.zhongwen.com/s/ziyin.htm#a - that lists in alphabetical order all the possible syllables that can be combined to make words in Mandadrin. The only possibilities are "a ai an ang ao". The combination "am" does not exist. So even if "amban" is used in Mandarin, it has been expropriated from Manchurian, and is not even pronounced properly.

Fact: Of seventy-nine resident "ambasa" (that's the plural), only two were Han.


44. ACB left...
Friday, 23 May 2008 3:50 am

kb:

On the contrary, I think that the kind of people who would be engaged by such a simplistic presentation are lightweights. Many of whom would do more harm than good by not looking deeper, not asking the important questions, and by not knowing the subject. I spelled out my belief in the dialog above, that these people would be torn apart by Fenqing for their lack of subject knowledge. It's one thing to believe that Tibet should be free, but it's another thing to be able to hold your own against somebody who feels the opposite.


45. ACB left...
Friday, 23 May 2008 3:56 am

kb:

"you have deleted all my posts"

All I can suggest is that maybe you were reading a cached version of the page.


46. kb left...
Saturday, 24 May 2008 10:37 am

ACB

people who don't know the issues need to be engaged in a easier way so as to bring them deeper into the issues...just putting out a very detailed and well researched report, necessary as that is, is not enough to engage a wider audience in the issues...people need to start somewhere and the video begins this journey with a proposition..that leads to a website where people can find out more and do more..i think it is better to lighten up on people who are not as informed as you are..they need to start somewhere..the more people engaged in the debate and the issues the better..and yes, amnesty are a credible organisation...what is your problem with them?


47. ACB left...
Saturday, 24 May 2008 6:19 pm

Human rights campaigns are like any form of advertising. You attract an audience that matches the kind of advert that you put out. You put out a light weight advertisement and you attract a light weight consumer, you put out a twee human rights campaign and you pick up an airhead protesters. Maybe 1 in 20 will go on to look at things deeper, but I doubt that many more would. What is needed is a hard hitting campaign, not this fluff. Those 19 lightweights have the potential to damage the wider campaign by making it seem like a bandwagon jumping bleeding heart issue, and the 1 person who does become more involved can't repair the damage.

Look at animal rights campaigning. Its a fine and worthy cause, but it's been held back for decades as a serious mainstream movement because early it often relies on using emotive that attracted lightweights and terrorists. The former of whom couldn't put up an intellectual argument if they tried and so make the movement look juvenile, and the latter of whom think that it's OK to break the law because "the end justifies the means".

"amnesty are a credible organisation...what is your problem with them?"

Amnesty are the PETA of Human rights, they are flighty and jump on emotional bandwagons. Don't get me wrong, I know that they have done some good work in raising public awareness of certain issues (their 1977 award demonstrated that), , but they are primarily a pressure group and little more, and I cannot support that approach in today's environment, especially not when dealing with a country like China.

Amnesty's main tactic is to expose and to shame. This may work with responsive governments who are susceptible to mid-weight public pressure and public opinion, but its primary effect on regimes such as Beijing is to make them close ranks, which is the exact opposite from what is needed. The more that Amnesty hounds Beijing the more Beijing will close up, and the more suspicious Beijing will become of the motives of NGOs and other bodies who are doing real good on the ground.

Let me put it to you this way. Suppose you were to get an audience with your senator, and were then to throw paint over them in protest over a local issue. 1) Would this make the senator more or less likely to be amenable to resolving the issue? 2) Would the senator be more or less likely to be wary of other groups campaigning over the same said issue?


48. kb left...
Saturday, 24 May 2008 6:54 pm

Hi ACB

Human rights campaigns do have an element of advertising about them but you are doing a great disservice to the many people, especially in amnesty who develop and deliver integrated campaigns..that means policy analysis and advocacy, that means legal submissions, that means high level delegations, relief work, solidarity work, protection in hostile countries...what the public sees in a campaign is often not the first stages in a campaign.

Amnesty’s China Olympics campaign started back in 2001 but it was not a public campaign in the way it is now..Amnesty tried engagement work with the Chinese authorities, looking at ways they could meet the commitments they made when bidding for the games..i repeat, the commitments they made...it was the Chinese authorities that started breaking their promises and locking up more and more human rights activists..face to face meetings and advocacy are essential but there comes a point when serious hr organisations need to engage more people in an issue..you should not be so dismissive and instead, should turn your cynicism on the way the Chinese authorities in power now spin their way through most things and hire international PR agencies to do their dealings...they spend millions on ensuring the people of the world do not see their many abuses of human rights...that is shameful my friend and amnesty is right to expose this...

Amnesty have been campaigning on China for over 30 years and will continue long after the games..hardly a bandwagon....in 2002, Jacque Rogge the head of the IOC stated on the record that he would like AI to monitor the hr situation in China...with or without that invitation, AI would be monitoring the hr situation in China

So ACB, you should really realise that what you see is not the whole story...the Chinese authorities refuse to meet AIs high level delegations because they have no credible defence as to why they need to constantly abuse the rights of so many people in China...AI are not looking to be best friends with any government, we are looking to ensure that governments either keep to their human rights commitments and international standards or sign and ratify human rights treaties which can be kept to....this is all in the interests of the people – not as consumers, but as active citizens


49. The Angry Chinese Blogger left...
Saturday, 24 May 2008 10:05 pm

KB:

"you are doing a great disservice to the many people, especially in amnesty who develop and deliver integrated campaigns"

No, I'm criticizing airhead pressure campaigns like this one, all that they do is make closed regimes close up even more which ends up hurting those on the ground doing good works who are viewed with suspicion by Beijing because Amnesty sets it against all foreign groups.. I consider any good works that Amnesty has done to be a separate issue, one which is ironically undermined by airhead soapbox campaigns.

"Amnesty tried engagement work with the Chinese authorities"

Amnesty tried to pressure the Chinese authorities, this not the same as engagement. Amnesty basically walked in to Beijing and said that it would loose face unless it changed its policies, forgetting (or prehaps not knowing) that for Beijing to give into external pressure would in itself be a loss of face.

"Chinese authorities that started breaking their promises and locking up more and more human rights activists"

I know that it's no excuse, but China locked up more activist because there were more activists to lock up.

"there comes a point when serious hr organisations need to engage more people in an issue"

As I said above, when you try to engage the Western using emotive messages all that this does is cause Beijing to build its walls higher. This is not only traditional Chinese thinking but it is the basic nature of any regime under attack for inside or outside.

"that is shameful my friend and amnesty is right to expose this"

See above. China has always dealt with shameful things in that way. For example, Beijing's natural response to increased public petitioning is not to resolve the issues, but is instead to prevent petitioners from reaching Beijing.

"Amnesty have been campaigning on China for over 30 years and will continue long after the games..hardly a bandwagon"

Amnesty have been on the train for the long haul, but they recently released a series of 4 Olympic videos. This was one of them. This is the bandwagon that I am referring to. A better approach would not have been to link torture which has been going on for generations to the the games, but instead to link the games directly to games related abuses such as forced relocations. I would not have been nearly so harsh if this video had shown the torture of a person protesting about their local market beig replaced with a high price shopping mall.

"Chinese authorities refuse to meet AIs high level delegations because they have no credible defence"

I have to disagree there. Beijing believes utterly that it has a credible defense. It doesn't meet with Amnesty because it believes that Amnesty is a foreign pressure group that has it in for China. I'm afraid that I have to agree with this, mostly because I believe that Amnesty's standards for acceptable behavior exceed those of any nation on Earth, including Western democracies. In short, there is nothing that Beijing can do that won't take 100 years of reform that will prevent Amnesty from critisizing it.


50. kb left...
Saturday, 24 May 2008 11:37 pm

ACB You certainly give the impression of somebody who either works for the Chinese authorities (liberal wing of course) or defends them in a quite subtle way. If that is not the case, then I am sorry to say that you lack a sophisticated understanding of where the current leadership are now and where they want to go – especially their foreign policy and the welcome principles of “opening up”. There is a certainty here, the Chinese authorities cannot close in on themselves..the earthquake reaction shows this clearly and even before that, the intentions and policies have all been about the gradual opening up of the country. With that comes the acknowledgement that there will be more legitimate criticism. ACB – you neither work for AI or are party to any of the communications between AI and the Chinese authorities so you should not really be commenting on things you do not know about. As for China building higher walls – the modernisers in China know that this is a counterproductive reaction and that they have to 1 – accept the legitimate criticism and 2 – remedy the situation...not by locking up the growing number of activists but by seriously addressing their concerns and the growing number of people in China who have legitimate grievances – house demolitions etc being just one. You need to argue less for the status quo (the Chinese neo con view) and more for reform and modernisation or you will be seen as a stooge my friend Amnesty's standards for acceptable behaviour exceed those of any nation on Earth, including Western democracies These are not AI standards, these are standards from the UDHR – for instance the ICCPR – China signed this and gave note that they would ratify..they are minimum requirements – it shows how far some governments (including the USA, UK etc) still have to go – the Chinese authorities and you should recognise that the people of China and China itself will be a better, richer, a more open and stable country if it lived up to the promises they made when bidding for the games...that is a reasonable and constructive approach...so, the animation, which is a “debate generator” is certainly serving the purpose, of engaging more people in the issues so as to explore those issues in a deeper way (like this...)


51. ACB left...
Sunday, 25 May 2008 12:07 am

KB:

That's a new one, usually I'm accused of being an American or a Japanese. I don't think that I've ever been accused of working for the government. Maybe you should take a look at the rest of my blog. You wil find that I am neither a fan or, nor a friend to, Beijing.

"you neither work for AI or are party to any of the communications between AI and the Chinese authorities"

Amnesty have a website, they publish detailed reports on it. Are you suggesting that they are engaged in secret discussion that they don't tell their membership about. They would be slaughtered in the media if it were discovered that they were campaigning for openness while going behind the public's back to "talk to the enemy".

"you should not really be commenting on things you do not know about"

Ah, you expect too little. I've been doing this for years.

"the modernisers in China know that this is a counterproductive reaction"

Knowing and doing are two separate things. Change of that nature comes slow in China.

"accept the legitimate criticism"

Beijing has never been good at this. Accepting criticism is to admit fault, I believe you know the rest.

"not by locking up the growing number of activists"

Yet this remains Beijing's default action.

"by seriously addressing their concerns and the growing number of people in China who have legitimate grievances"

That sounds good on paper but it is a lot easier said than done. Most of the complaints in China are against local or regional entities that are remote from Beijing and neither under its direct control nor its direct supervision. Most of the apparatus for dealing with these entities is also remote from Beijing, and is often under the influence of the very people whom are committing the abuses. For example, a village committee will take a farmers land and sell it to a city official who sells it to a big corporation wanting to build a factory. The corporation pays the official a bribe who pays the committee a bribe, and both pay the police a bribe. The farmer can't go to the village committee for help, or the city official, or the police. They also may have difficulty going to the press because the press is often afraid of being shut down or is being bribed, too. This leaves civil disobedience or a petition as the only recourse. However Beijing opposes both as they undermine its authority. So, even if Beijing opposes illegal land sales it often does not find out about them until they have reached a stage where it feels that it has to crack down on the victim in order to maintain it's own grip on power.

"You need to argue less for the status quo"

I'm not condoning it, I'm telling you about it.

"These are not AI standards"

They are the standards that Amnesty promotes. Hences they are Amnesty's standards.

"if it lived up to the promises they made when bidding for the games"

Beijing would like very much to meet its promises. But it's afraid that if it moves too fast it will loose control. In the Chinese way of thinking stability is more important than progress if progress comes at the cost of stability. If given the choice of a short hard journey or an longer but easier journey most Chinese would, at the end of the day, opt for the easy journey. Imagine if you could right all of the wrongs of the world in 1 year but it would cost 1 million lives, or if you could do it in 100 years at the cost of 1,000 lives. Which would you choose?

"engaging more people in the issues so as to explore those issues in a deeper way"

The problem is that I don't believe that this video will generate sufficient deep interest to outweigh the damage done by the airheads that it attracts who will leap in to an an argument rather than walking into a debate. This video is so simple that it will put off the intellectuals that Amnesty needs to lend it credibility.


52. kb left...
Sunday, 25 May 2008 7:43 am

“Amnesty have a website, they publish detailed reports on it. Are you suggesting that they are engaged in secret discussion that they don't tell their membership about. They would be slaughtered in the media if it were discovered that they were campaigning for openness while going behind the public's back to "talk to the enemy".”

Oh dear ACB...little naive methinks... of course AI speaks to governments, including representatives from the Chinese authorities ‘off the record’, or under ‘Chatham House rules’ or through ‘back channels’...all major NGOs do this..not to deceive their membership but because many governments prefer such communications. They would prefer their conversations to be confidential and AI respects that.

The Chinese government are certainly not AIs enemy..that is your characterisation – its actually more the case that governments, including the Chinese government prefer to keep their discussions confidential.

What you see on the website is the tip of a very big iceberg


53. ACB left...
Sunday, 25 May 2008 5:33 pm

KB:

You're back tracking. Before you were suggesting that they held secret discussions that the public never learn about, now you're merely suggesting that they don't publish everything that they talk about with Beijing.

Well, the fact is that Amnesty's campaigns ARE a matter of public record, and that they remain a pressure group rather than an active partner, and we all know how Beijing reacts when faced with pressure groups.