Paris to Beijing: Olympic torch is "flame of shame"

Post olympics, China will create a true multicultural meltingpot in tibet. China will accept refugees around world and give them foods and put them inside tibet. Tibet will a true melting pot.

Mao left: Did you mean that Tibet will be assimilated by Han with total destruction of the Tibetan culture, religion and way of life ? You are too late. The process started over 50 years ago.

Your idea of "melting pot" is exactly what the Tibetans don't want. Of course, the Chinese communists are not the ones who care about what people want.

It is hard to imagine that there are people supporting the Chinesse government. They must be party officials. Nobody with any sense would support these thugs.

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Unless you don't understand that China is supported by the majority of the Chinese in China, you are probably just a little frog trying to question why people supported China. In all likelihood, Shanghai and Beijing are probably more modern and richer than a lot of Western Cities.

And the argument still stands : regardless of how many people in China dont care about the problems in their own country and won't face them, and regardless of the wealth of Shanghai and Beijing (you forgot to mention the pollution: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7264957.stm) , the fact remains that China is not actually even trying to live up to the motto: "One World, One Dream". All they care about is just getting the money and tourism from the Olympics, and putting on a pretty, fake face for the world.

It's not just Tibet. China buys 2/3 of Sudan's oil, and that money goes right to fueling the Darfur genocide. Of course, China is too "modern" to consider pulling out, like the rest of the world, and would rather just not worry about how they are supporting a corrupt regime, because they need the oil. I guess growing and looking more economically powerful and "strong" makes the Chinese government feel better about being such a corrupt place themselves.

By the way, shouldn't "modern" also play into how people actually live in a place? It seems like the Chinese governmental mindset is just to ignore the problems that they cause, and forget about anyone that gets in the way of their race for power to boost their egos and forget the guilt for the crimes that they are perpetrating.

"It is hard to imagine that there are people supporting the Chinese government. They must be party officials......"

You'd be quite quite wrong there. There is a lot of patriotism amongst Chinese. Particularly amongst overseas Chinese who feel strong ancestral bonds to China, but whom have never known life under Beijing.

"There is a lot of patriotism amongst Chinese. Particularly amongst overseas Chinese who feel strong ancestral bonds to China, but whom have never known life under Beijing."

And these self-same Chinese will have to figure out where there allegiances truly lie this coming century. Whether they are truly Chinese, and as such pledge support and allegiance to China, or to their host countries where they have been born and raised (and are most probably officially citizens of). A lot of conflict of interests between China and other countries are sprouting on the international stage, and it probably won't be long until non-Chinese citizens of Chinese lineage will have to choose whom to pledge allegiance to.

Ridiculous French fools! Whose fire it is? It lit up in Greece, and represents the fire of european civilization. So, put it down, put the fire of european civilization down. Why Chinese people feel ashamed or offended! Just put it down. Chinese people will lit up the torch in Beijing, Hymalaya Mountain, haha...

Do you know why western politicians and celebrity are so hysterica about dala lama? dala lama brought with him 67 human skined docoration articles when he fled away from Xizang after failed military upriing sponspored by CIA. dala sent some of these human skinned drum, cup to western poticitian and celebrity like richard jole. But they still want more to decorate their sitting room and dining room. They want dala lama back to Xizang to govern, so that they can collect more xizang ordinary tibetan's skinned decoration articles. That is truth. Please see the pix. Very Alarming but Real! selfclaimed peace-lover dala lama's property!

Go to www.anti-cnn.com to see the truth!

dood: Most are loyal to Chinese culture and Chinese traditions, rather than loyal to Beijing.

American's can love the flag but hate George Bush.

Yes, I am aware of that. I was referring to patriotic overseas Chinese who (may or may not) have foreign citizenship. They being "Chinese patriots" Isn't exactly very comforting to their host countries. Imagine, say, for the sake of illustration, an American who migrated to China, and got naturalized. He has kids in China, who are considered Chinese Citizens but who grow up to be "Patriotic Americans" who,though not pro-America all the way, are still pro America. They hang American flags in front of their house, and all of that other symbolic patriotic stuff. They get insulted when people talk smack about America, and believe that the Chinese press is making outright lies, and the American press tells the whole truth. They may not like the American President, but they love the American motherland. Now switch China and Chinese, with America and American. Or, if so desired, instead of using America and Americans, plug in Europe and Europeans, Russia and Russians, Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabians, etc.

When things get real murky (say war breaks out between China and America, though God forbid), these overseas patriots are going to be in a very tough spot. Not to mention that their host countries will also have a dilemma as to whether to send them to the country which is the object of their patriotism, or let them stay. That's why I said that they'll have to choose sooner or later as to whom their allegiances truly lie. There's a lot of friction and conflict of interests in the global stage.

dood:

I suggest that you go to your local Mosque or Islamic center and ask the young men there how they feel about the war in Iraq. This will give you a better idea of the lay of the land than any hypothetical speech that I could give.

Personally, my loyalties are decided by the values that I hold, not the country that I was raise in. I will stand up for my values and beliefs against any government that would trample on them. Be it my own government or a foreign government.

At the end of they day overseas-Chinese will choose sides based on their individual beliefs, not on what passport their grandparents held.

It also pays to remember that many overseas Chinese, particularly those in the West, are the decedents of exiles and economic migrants. Their love for China is often more the love for China town and they way that China thinks of its self, rather than love for the CCP.

"At the end of they day overseas-Chinese will choose sides based on their individual beliefs, not on what passport their grandparents held."

And this is exactly my point. overseas-Chinese who love their new homes will side with these home countries of theirs, and overseas-Chinese who love the "Chinese Motherland" more will end up defecting and leaving for China, abandoning any non-Chinese citizenship they may have. Both love Chinese culture, but when things get more complicated, a time will come when they will have to make a choice. What, however, is worrisome for the host countries is the fact that overseas-Chinese actually have to think twice about their allegiances before they can even answer. Citizens are supposed to have allegiance only to their own country, and answering should be a no-brainer for any person. If they have double allegiance, and they have to think and consider before they can answer, that is going to be very problematic, not only for their host countries, but for themselves as well.

dood, Sir, I have to question your intention of your statement “What, however, is worrisome for the host countries is the fact that overseas-Chinese actually have to think twice about their allegiances before they can even answer. “ What research evidences do you have to make such statement? Why are you target “over-sea Chinese” but not the others? It is the same logic in ww II that the US gov. used against the non native born us citizens of Japan heritage. Don’t you think your statement is little “underhanded” ?

"non native born us citizens of Japan heritage"

I don't recall that stopping Washington. May native born American citizens who had never even been to Japan were interned too, if only because their parents were interned and they had nowhere else to go.

Dood:

"more will end up defecting and leaving for China"

I doubt that very much. A few percent may move to China because of better economic prospects, but I can personally tell you that it you have to be VERY ideologically minded to leave a developed country like the US to go and live on the Mainland. You're much more likely to stay in the US and to complain about it being a land of obese capitalist pig-dogs while wearing your Nike and chewing on a hamburger, than you are to actually up and leave.

"What, however, is worrisome for the host countries is the fact that overseas-Chinese actually have to think twice about their allegiances before they can even answer."

I'd have to think twice, too. It's not the kind of answer that you can give lightly or which is easy to reach. Being overseas Chinese is more than having a different passport from your grandparents. You have the weight of 5,000 years of history and culture pressing down on you, but often from a long way away. It can be very difficult to know exactly who you are or where you come from in a situation like that, especially if you have, as many overseas Chinese do, a large extended family where the entire older generation is are Mainlanders with their boots in 21st century America but their heads in 19th century China.

First off, I would like to make clear that I am referring to patriotic overseas Chinese (who may be citizens of their host countries) under extreme international conditions such as war. When something like that erupts, fence sitting isn't an option. The situation of Japanese-Americans during WWII is actually a fitting illustration in my opinion. It is an extremely cynical and pessimistic view of what could be, but I think that under such conditions, it still is more realistic than assuming that ethnic Chinese will be looked upon without suspicion.

And, no I am aware of the fact that patriotism for one's home land is not unique to the Chinese. I would like however to reiterate once again that I am referring to overseas Chinese who have to think twice before answering as to where their allegiances lie. Like what I mentioned before, such choices should be a no-brainer for anyone. All countries demand loyalty and allegiance from all of their citizens, regardless of ethnic background. Allegiance to one's country is not something that's even meant to be considered. Sure, government can be criticized and any grievances aired, but when made to choose between a foreign power and one's country during a time such as war, the choice should always be crystal clear.

This is a China blog, so I've focused solely on China and the Chinese, but I think putting the spotlight on the Chinese is still merited because they are in a very special position. China is currently the leading country challenging the status quo of the current world order. Add to that their large overseas presence, the seeming intense nationalism further fanned by Chinese media, and what seems to be the influence of Beijing on overseas Chinese groups. These aren't similarly true with other migrant-nationals.

Most of these are merely based on suppositions and conjecture, and merely an opinion from one person. I am sorry if it comes across as "underhanded" or otherwise.

Dood:

Speaking from my own experience and observations I can tell you that the key factor in which way overseas Chinese will swing in an extreme situation won't be their attachment to Chinese culture, or even their loyalties to Beijing, it will be the reaction of the non-overseas Chinese around them.

I support China in the broader sense but I don't support Beijing. I think that it's a corrupt monolithic legalistic machine that tries to preserve order by stamping on anybody who complains, rather than by addressing their complaints. I wouldn't fight against the West to protect Beijing, except in terms of debate when I smell the stench of hypocrisy or missinformation.

However, if I were living as an overseas Chinese in enclave (Read: Chinatown) surrounded by redneck whitetrash and they gave use grief 24/7 over our links to China, rather than supporting us as their neighbors, I'd be much more likely to turn against them.

Just look at the current situation with the so-called War on Terror and domestic Muslim populations and the differences that exist between the US and Europe.

In the US, most domestic Muslims are treated as US citizens first and Muslims second by both the US government and the white population, and there is very little trouble. US Muslims can buy high power weapons off the shelf and could easily buy a couple of guns and then walk onto a bus and kill a dozen people, yet it's never happened. Yet in the UK where domestic Muslims are treated as Muslims first and citizens second, and are much more isolated and less supported by both the local communities and the government, they are hatching all kinds of plots and are using whatever materials that they can to make homemade bombs.

It's the same with overseas Chinese. If the host country treat overseas Chinese as their kin then overseas Chinese will feel part of the community and will react against Beijing if their communities come to harm because of it. But if the host country treats overseas Chinese as outsiders then they will react as outsiders would.