Smoke, mirrors, and the 2008 Torch Procession

"Beijing is doing with current affairs what George Orwell's Winston Smith did with history books." - Yes, but can't the same be said about the Western media coverage of the PRC? I certainly don't condone the Chinese presence in Tibet, but at the same time, I believe there is a lot of ignorance among the Western public about actual living conditions in Tibet (and I speak from the perspective of someone who researches and who has traveled in China and Tibet).

michelle: "but can't the same be said about the Western media coverage of the PRC?"

Well, for one, I don't think the West or any other country besides China goes around internet forums deleting posts. Political censorship is definitely not as heavy, sophisticated, and organized in the West and the rest of the world than it is in PRC. There are even rumors that they employ an army of "thought police" to wage internet comment battles in sites that they themselves can't censor. Well, it's just a rumor. Biased reporting is one thing, but when opposing independent views are disposed of and hidden, that's an entirely different matter. And it's worse when things are made to look as if discussion is actually free and open.

Rubbish westerners. Your government fears to break up with China. So, break up if you think it is agianst your value. Stop travel in CHINA let alone in Xizang. Stop making money from China. Stop teaching what is democracy. Chinese people supported CCP by lifes of their sons, husbands, themselves to have CCP control this country and achieved great accomplishment. Stop dreaming China is no only a sickman in east anymore!

What a pity! Listen: Chinese people support their government, because they elected this CCP not by shallow votes but lives of their sons, husbands, themselves! Chinese people love their great nation with 5000 years of history and 1/4 population of the world! They wil fight to their last man and woman and last blood. So, be the enemy, Chinese never feared. Nevered feared, we fought since 1840 and won a total victory 1949. Now you westers want to repeat? Be careful! How many of you could be left!

ACB, Take heart. Where politics in China is concerned, never judge a book by its cover. And in the land of traditional inscrutability, every book cover looks like each other...

Cheer yourself up with this... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/analysis/7340203.stm The pollution is not cheerful, but it is not news and it has been bad for years. What is cheerful is that the NGOs understand and see a way forward. Unfortunately, the reporter in the radio article is obsessed with democracy, goodness knows why? Democracy is very imperfect. Look at the U.S.A. and all its problems, although as everywhere else, the rich do not, cannot and will not see the problems.

I would like to post a question to ACB, would you care to share your knowlege and sources on Tibet's sovereignty ? About 3 years ago, before 'free tibet' became the slogan du jour, I did my bit of research on this subject. I would very much like to compare yours source to mine, maybe I have missed something. Becasue after reading a lot of research papers for both sides (why china has historical claim on tibet and why tibet is a separated state) my personal conclusion is china's claim seems stronger. Obviously your opion on this is totally opposite. One thing has to be declared first, I am mainlander, has spent half of my life in Europe. I say this becasuse I believe no one could be free from the influence one's upbrings, education, national identity, etc., we are all 'pre-programmed'. there is no absoulte objective truth, one can only get as many angles as one is able, then draw one's subjective conclusion. I know it may require a bit of time to compile the lists, but I would really appreciate it.

"...would you care to share your knowledge and sources on Tibet's sovereignty ?"

I think other blog readers would also be interested in what facts led you to your conclusion that China's claim is stronger. For a change I hope that I actually learn something new from a level headed Chinese view. Most of the other people everywhere else sound like they're shouting in their posts.

Anyway, ACB usually doesn't reply quickly. Hopefully Mr./Ms. julndy can post her thoughts in the interim.

At dood #2: "Political censorship is definitely not as heavy, sophisticated, and organized in the West and the rest of the world than it is in PRC." No, but the end result is the same, isn't it? The worst is that we *think* we have a free press in the West, but much of the international reporting is biased. At least in China, we know that the news is openly censored - no secrets about that. And have you ever been to China or Tibet?

a civilian Chinese:

Most Chinese would support any domestic government whom gave them stability with the promise of growth. Chinese are for China, the CCP is only supported because it is sitting atop China. Take China out of the CCP and the people would see it as foreign and would not support it.

a civilian Chinese:

You're maths are bad. Chinese are 1/5 of the world. 1/6 if you count only Mainland Chinese, and 1/7 if you do not count the overseas Chinese whom have lost their Chinese history and have now become mere foreigners with Chinese faces.

julndy:

Tibet currently has no sovereignty, it is under direct rule from Beijing. My source is the CCP.

The problem with the idiots that are governing China is that they can't get their pin heads around the concept that not everybody thinks they are doing a good job.

They are so blinded by their power that they can't recognize that there are lots of people inside and outside of China that think that they are criminals, thugs, thiefs, petty, self-centered, arrogant, mistaken, demons, and all round bad people.

China will eventually collapse under the weight of its own ignorance. They use their own people as slaves and then expect loyalty? Are the people in charge stupid? Are they taking stupid pills?

Live From Las Vegas The Masked Millionaire

@michelle #8

First off, nope, I've never been to China or Tibet. I'm just one of those armchair international political scientists.

And no, I will have to disagree with you. The effects are not the same, well at least for the independent free thinkers. Like what I said, biased reports are wrong enough, but stifling opposing opinions that are not in line with the government's is just wrong. Let those people who don't think before they believe, believe whatever it is they want. But when people want to voice out their opinions, because their minds rebel with what they're reading, the government should not stuff a sock into their mouths. Even assuming that the Western media is biased, people who don't believe Western media are allowed not only to not believe, but they are also allowed to voice out their opinions, and try to win over other people onto their way of thinking. Unfortunately, it appears that the opposite is true with China (according to Western Media, and those several times I visited the Chinadaily forums). Apparently, everything has to be "harmonious" over there. If you're not harmonizing, you'll get harmonized. Well, maybe not you. But your internet posts will be.

The Masked Millionaire:

"The problem with the idiots that are ....."

Sorry, but you could not be more wrong. Firstly, Beijing is fully aware that it is looked down upon and that it is seen as a tyrannical government. They know full well that they are broadly criticized both within and without China, and that the cause of this is their own actions. Beijing isn't ignorant, or in denial, it's just single minded and intent on preserving its own power. Chinese leaders don't live in an ivory tower shielded from criticism, they live in a bunker of their own building designed to ensure tat they can keep going despite the criticism.

"They use their own people as slaves"

Actually, most slavery, in the form of sweat shops and so on, is conducted by the private sector. The rest of what you see isn't so much Beijing's fault as it is the condition of being a developing country. You find the same the world over. It's little different in Mexico, India, the Philippines, and so on. It was little different in the US during pioneer times. Beijing's main crime in this area is not defending worker's rights. However, this isn't because it wants to enslave the workers, but rather than it is afraid that unionization will lead to the birth of bodies that could challenge its power and policies. If you look closely at China you will see that this isn't about people's rights at all, but is rather about the maintenance of unchallenged government power. Indeed, Beijing does exactly the same to religious groups and environmental groups, Beijing even does this to groups such as homosexuals because it is afraid that if they develop a popular movement it might become powerful enough to oppose its governance of China.

"Are the people in charge stupid? Are they taking stupid pills?'

No, they are trying to hold together a very large country with a very large gap between rich and poor and a very large number of different ethnic people with their own ideas and identities. If China didn't have a strong arm government it would have collapsed a century ago.

"China will eventually collapse under the weight of its own ignorance."

This doesn't look likely right now. China's economic progress is outweighing things. If China has another 10 years of stability what you will eventually end up with is a country where the urban areas are as rich and developed as the US but where people can't vote. Stability and economic development overcome poor governance and human rights.

@michelle #8

You are correct, but only to a certain extent. I've known a lot of Westerner in my time and the one thing that I have noticed about them is that they often believe that their media gives them a much more even and multi-track view of the world than it actually does.

For example, most American's that I've known have received a very narrow view of the world through the mainstream media, and they tend to believe that the news that they are receiving is representative of the wider story, when it is in fact only a very narrow perspective. Where they do see differing opinions these opinions are also often only differing opinions on the same narrow track, typically that of a middle class white American, when in fact there are many more opinions that they are not seeing and the track is actually a lot wider than they believe.

Having a press that is free to tell the wider story isn't the same thing as the press using that freedom. You need to remember one key point about the US news media, and that is that it doesn't exist to inform the public of new things but rather to attract an audience who already believes certain things, and then to keep them by continuing to broadcast said things. In a highly commercialized environment, such as the US, this is the only way that a big news media group can compete for audiences. If you make your audience feel stupid or if you tell them that what they believe is wrong they will get up and take their fraction of the Nielsen ratings with them.

Where you go wrong is believing that what happens in the US and in China is comparable in terms of the end result. In the US what you get are a lot of people who go around in blissful ignorance thinking that they are right and that you are wrong because they aren't aware of the bigger picture, rather than because of direct lies being told to them by the media (This does happen, but not remotely as much as it does in China). What you get in China are a lot of people who either cannot grasp the concept that there is another side to the story or another perspective that could be as worthy as their own, or whom are in jail for trying to tell the first lot of people this because the media has been directly manipulated to engender the notion that there is only one perspective.

If you print lots of stories in the US that oppose the government line you get called a liberal/conservative (depending on what the government is) and your audience is limited to people whom feel the same way. In China you get called a criminal and you get jailed for sedition and inciting sedition.

This is the abstract from a briefing given to Mainland journalists in 2005 which was leaked onto the internet. It was written directly by the state used during briefings with editorial staff for a number of media outlets.

4月20日，中国的宣传部们紧急向各新闻单位传达中办和国办的11号 文件，内容是《关于当前稳定工作的通知》，摘要如下：

一、关于当前形势的分析：

（一）今年是“6．4”15周年，境外一些民运分子比较活跃，他们准 　　　备在“6．4”纪念日期间采取闯关行动，准备强行闯关； （二）关于自由化的问题，主要是否定共产党领导，否定社会主义制 　　　度，搞所谓的“民间学习”，还有一些敌对势力把刑事案件政治化； （三）“法轮功”邪教分子搞破坏活动； （四）互联网上各种有害信息的传播； （五）群体事件比较突出，主要表现在拆迁、上访等方面； （六）境外敌对势力利用宗教等渠道（印刷品、互联网），拉拢青少年 或在学校里开展学术活动、助学等等，搞非法活动； （七）香港问题。

重点是关于“6．4”、关于“法轮功”、关于群体事件”。

二、各级各部门要做好防范措施：

（一）坚决制止民运分子闯关入境； （二）严密防范各种活动； （三）严密防范敌对分子利用互联网搞活动； （四）严密防范群体事件的发生； （五）严密防范“法轮功”邪教组织搞破坏； （六）严密防范重点部门和人员的安全； （七）严密防范一些影响安定团结的因素。

三、当前要狠抓的五项工作：

（一）坚持正确的理论和责任意识； （二）切实加强情报工作，掌握各种活动情况； （三）坚持正确的舆论导向，有效地防范境外敌对分子的破坏，坚决 　　　不发任何和中央政策不一致的任何言论； （四）突出重点，有针对性地做好防范控制工作； （五）减少群体性上访。

(同时要注意境外民运分子与境内媒体个别编辑、记者的联系，一旦发现，立即报告)

Can you honestly see a document like this being delivered to media agencies in the US? The man who leaked this document, a journalist named Shi Tao, was later sentenced to 10 years imprisonment for doing so.

to dood, thanks for you comments. The reason for me to look into the tibet issue a few years ago, was trigged by the constant mention of China's invasion in the 1950s. For a mainlander, this concept is very alien. Because our education did not mention such event, but it is not to say that we don't recognize tibet was annexed or invaded, (most of chinese territory went through separation, unification, wars through varies period, nothing unusual here), it was done centuries ago, now it has been an intergraded part, why the need to tear it up again? So with that question mark on my mind, I started looking for materials. Here I have to mention my impression of tibet's history was it became part of china by a marriage between tibet's king with Chinese emperor's daughter in Dang dynasty. Of course it is completely wrong. the marriage did exist, it ended the war between the then 2 kingdoms, but by no means tibet stopped being a strong, independent kingdom. After a bit of reading, I found there is no great disputes over this period on the both sides, so that could be just mine own misunderstanding.

for those don't want to see a over-detailed list, here is one article worth reading:

http://www.eastwestcenter.org/fileadmin/stored/pdfs/PS007.pdf

The 13th century, the yuan dynasty, under the Mongol rule. This is the turning point, from pro-china camp, it marked the unification, as both countries were conquered and under same administration by a foreign power. Pro-tibet camp argued that despite the common ruler, but in fact there were two separated administration zones, so no real integrations, besides under the mongol rules they received far better treatment than 'middle-kingdom'. a yuan map: http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Dynasty/dynasty-Mongol.html Personally, I find I can accept the idea of 2 administration zone, but the overly romanticized picture of the special bonds between the Mongol emperor with the tibet lama painted by the pro-tibet camp rends no significance.

Ming Dynasty: I believe the evidence on the following Ming Dynasty's claim on tibet is rather patchy.

here is a pro-china site; http://zt.tibet.cn/english/zt/041225_xzsh/index.html and http://www.freetibet.org/info/facts/fact15.html However, Ming dynasty was not weak period, but I can't find more solid facts on the tibet issues during this time, and the source I found on Ming territory is inconsistent. so personally, I took pro-tibet view. http://www-chaos.umd.edu/history/imperial3.html while compiling my lists I came access a recent alteration on wikipedia about the Ming territory, for those have interests, take a look. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2008-04-02_Min g_Dynasty

Qing Dynasty, it is the time with most detailed records on the relations between tibet and China. Based on this period I've drawn most of my personal conclusion, the pro-china camp seems have a stronger point. http://www.intute.ac.uk/socialsciences/cgi-bin/fullrecord.pl?handle=2008031 9-08432917 http://www.eastwestcenter.org/fileadmin/stored/pdfs/PS007.pdf This is an excellent paper with extensive examples and historical backings used by both sides, which encompass almost all my previous finds, also provided more. One point particular worth noting is pointing out the sources been supplied by pro-tibet camp are most written in English and was written after 1950s. While pro-china camp provides evidence with historical records through out the different periods.

This is very significant point. Pro-tibet camp can not be called total fabrication but it does not have all the first hand historical records, it is composed after 1950s, it is very difficult to distinguish the wishful think or interpretation from the real events.

Republic of China, 1912-1949, for Pro-tibet camp, the most important time, tibet enjoyed de facto state of independence, the reason for today's free tibet movement, and reason for calling the PRC the invader. Same article mentioned above will provided all the information up to today. http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/221-greater-china-made-in-taiwa n/

Although POC was not able to assert much of its power, it never gives up its claims over tibet or other region, even till this day, it has not recognised the Republic of Mongolia, and for that reason, Mao zhe Dong and CCP were called traitors for letting outter Monglia indepentent, same sentiments are hold even among some of the mainlanders althought it is not openly discussed.

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

anyway, it is very difficult for me to retrace my finds 3 years, now the web is flooded with all sorts of pro-tibet sites, one thing is good, they are very much saying the same things. But the sholarly research papers are hard to find now. So I have replaced a few.

Thank you for the post julndy.