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Ugly scenes as Beijing moves against Tibetan Beauty Queen who wouldn't bow down to to China

posted Monday, 1 August 2005

While most beauty pageants are meant to be more about swimsuits and vapid smiles than politics and military occupations, it would appear that a Malaysian beauty pageant, scheduled for later this year, is to include all four elements with the last two courtesy of officials in Beijing.

Under political pressure from Beijing, organizers of the Miss Tourism pageant in Kuching, Malaysian-Borneo, have announced that they are barring contestant Tashi Yangchen, from the event, unless she competes under a banner that is more acceptable to China, as part of Beijing ongoing battle to hide the fact from the world that many part of China have little or no desire to be part of China.





Miss Tibet, Tashi Yangchen

Though not a household name, even in what remains of her home country, Tashi Yangchen was awarded the title of 'Miss Tibet' in 2004 by the countries exiled government, and had been intending to compete in the 2005 Miss Tourism-Malaysia contest later this year, but under pressure from Beijing, the contests organizers have stated that they will not permit her to enter unless she does so under the banner 'Miss Tibet-China'.


 "We will not accept her [Tashi 's] entry if she participates as Miss Tibet,"

Alaric Soh, Organizer, Miss Tourism pageant, Malaysia



Shortly after the Beijing backed edict was announced, representative of Miss Tibet responded that the re-branding of their competitor was unacceptable, and that Miss Tibet would not be participating in the pageant.


"Miss Tibet, Tashi Yangchen, made all the preparations but now she is not participating at this year's Miss Tourism Pageant in Malaysia because the organiser of the Miss Tourism Pageant 2005 required Miss Tibet to participate as Miss Tibet-China,"

Ngawang Samdup, spokesperson, Miss Tibet pageant



To many Tibetans, using the title of China or Chinese along side Tibet is considered to be anathema on similar lines to forcing Koreans to call themselves Japanese was during the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. A less politically correct observers might also make further comparisons between the two military occupations.

Aside from the political and moral implications of competing under the altered banner, there are also a number of legal implications; Tashi has never been awarded the title of 'Miss Tibet-China' and so cannot compete under it in international competitions.

In a statement regarding the decision to bar a 'Miss Tibet' entry from the contest, pageant organizers denied taking sides in the Sino-Tibetan situation, saying that the contest organizers did not want to become embroiled in politics or the internal affairs of other countries.


”we do not want to have anything to do with their [China's] internal issues,"

Alaric Soh



Unfortunately, many would disagree that issues of Sino-Tibetan politics constitute an internal matter, particularly those who live in Tibet and are not Han immigrants.


 “China is meddling in the event with political motives."

Ngawang Samdup



Tashi was crowned Miss Tibet in 2004 by the Tibetan government in exile. Though the exiled government is recognized in spirit by some members of the international community, it is not located in Tibet and has negligible official dealing with other governments.

In addition to Sino-Tibetan confrontations, there have been some complaints from Chinese officials saying that Tashi should not be able to compete under the TIbetan banner on the grounds that she was Indian resident when crowned as Miss Tibet.

Adding insult to Occupation

The 2005 Miss Tourism-Malaysia pageant is not the first time that Tashi has fallen foul of Beijing's anti-Tibetan ploys; in February of this year, she was removed from the Miss Tourism World pageant in Zimbabwe after a 'strong protest' was made by Chinese officials against her entering in the name of a sovereign Tibet.

Events in Malaysia, regarding Tashi's entrance, are also not the only incident in which of Beijing has put pressure on the contest's organizers to bend the accepted norms of conduct to suit it state line; in addition to demands made on Miss Tibet, Miss Tourism-Malaysia contestants from Hong-Kong and Chinese Taiwan are only permitted to participate if they enter under the banners of 'Miss Chinese Taipei' and 'Miss Hong Kong-China'.

Beijing previously issued protest to the 2003 Miss Tourism Pageant in Malaysia because of the inclusion of a Miss Tibet entrant.

One country, four Contestants?

In light of the One China policy, and Beijing's assertion that Hong-Kong and Tibet are immutable components, some spectators have questioned why mainland China is apparently been allowed to enter four contestants (Tibet, Hong-Kong, Chinese Taiwan and Mainland China) when it already has an entrant representing greater China (including mainland China, Honk-Kong and all disputed territories), comparing the situation to allowing each of Japan's main islands to field a contestant in addition to a national contestant representing all of the islands.

Subduing Tibet

Since the annexation of Tibet by post WWII Chinese troops, Beijing has maintained a three prong approach to securing the formerly sovereign nation as part of greater China, attacking the nation's culture, destabilizing its population, and attempting to prevent Tibetan issues from being given publicity overseas,

To date, Beijing maintains a ban on many aspect of Tibetan culture, prohibiting the country's population from participating in activities that remind them of their separate identity or which encourage national unity against Chinese rule.

In addition to banning many aspects of Tibetan culture, Beijing has undertaken a policy of promoting certain aspects of Tibetan culture, mainly those considered to be colorful but harmless, as being relics suitable only for displaying in museums built for predominantly western tourists in an effort to convince Tibet's remaining indigenous population that their cultural epitaphs are outdated, being maintained only in a historical sense, and that they are voluntarily giving them up in exchange from the 'more modern Chinese culture'. However, China's efforts to further pacify Tibet, and to strengthen claims that it is an immutable part of China, don't end with the erosion of Tibetan culture, they also include an erosion of the Tibetan people themselves and attempts to erode Tibet in the eyes of other countries.

Over the last few decades, Beijing has been progressively acting to recreate Tibet as a Han kingdom, offering strong incentives; including prime jobs and administrative positions, to China's ruling Han ethnic groups if they emigrate to Tibet in a move to breed Tibetans out and replace them with a Han population.

According to some statistics, Han Chinese numbers in Tibet have now reacher approximately 7.5 million, outnumbering Tibet' native population by 500,000. There have also been claims that a disproportionate amount of Han who immigrate to Tibet former, particularly those in high ranking positions, are former soldiers and police officers who are not only loyal to Beijing, but could also form the core of an militia in the events of an open conflict erupting.

Efforts to create a Han Tibet have been further strengthened by the relocation and expansion of Chinese industry to Tibet; forcing many Tibetans farmers from their land and into areas with poorer agricultural yields, and Tibetan workers into working for Han dominated companies that practice indoctrination rather than co-existence for their workers. It is also routine for promotions to be based on ethnicity, with only the Tibetans who are 'sufficiently Han enough' receiving opportunities to advance.

Beijing has also taken efforts to isolate Tibet internationally, launching diplomatic offensives against countries that have dealings with Tibet's exiled government and those who disagree with China on the issue in order to intimidate them into either following Beijing's state line on Tibet, or into remaining outside the issue. Beijing has even gone as far as to order significant world governments, including America the European nations to cancel or prohibit meetings between national figures and Tibetan emissaries or face a dire degradations of relations.

So far, most large world players have ignored Beijing's demands to isolate Tibet, but many smaller nations, including Malaysia have complied in some form.

For further information on Miss Tibet, or to lend support to the pageant, please visit;

http://misstibet.com/

links: digg this    del.icio.us    technorati    reddit




1. the angry Chinese fool left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 12:37 am

The UK and the US worked hard to separate Tibet from China since 19th century.

During the 19th century, Qing control weakened, and social prosperity diminished. China suffered massive social strife, economic stagnation, explosive population growth, and Western colonization.

British aggressors invaded Tibet (a province of China in Qing Dynasty) twice in 1888 and 1903. The Chinese/Tibetan army and civilians rose to resist but were defeated. In the 1903 war over Tibet, the British army occupied Lhasa city. The 13th Dalai Lama was forced to flee from the city.

The British invaders compelled the local government officials to sign the Lhasa Convention. The Ministry of External Affairs of the Qing government detected that the Lhasa Convention would do damage to the Chinese sovereignty, the Qing high commissioner stationed in Tibet refused to sign it, leaving it ineffectual.

Britain took advantage of the political chaos in China after the collapse of the Qing Dynasty and the new birth of the Republic of China in 1901, and put before the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs a five-point demand, indicating the denial of China's sovereignty over Tibet. Republic of China government again rejected the British demand.

In 1913 the British government inveigled the puppet Tibetan authorities into declaring independence with the supervision, indeed full support by the British. The British would like to turn Tibet into British colony like India.

In the summer of 1942, the puppet government, with the support of the British representative, announced, yet another time, the establishment of a "foreign affairs bureau," and openly carried out "Tibetan independence" activities.

These actions were made public and condemned unanimously by the people all over China. The ROC national government also issued a stern warning against the British move. Under this pressure, the Tibetan local government withdrew its independence declaration and reported the change to the ROC national government.

In 1949, America, in an attempt to prevent “communism” from spreading to India, announced in a US newspaper: “The United States is ready to recognize Tibet as an independent and free country."

The father of George W Bush once believed that the coastal areas of China, plus Tibet, Xingjian and Inner Mongolia, would split. The US' CIA, with an investment of US$245,000, entrusted the University of Hawaii to research whether the tense situations in ethnic areas in China will lead to a split of the country. The research results *unfortunately * disappointed them.

In 1957 the CIA culled six young men from among Tibetans residing abroad and sent them to Guam of the United States to receive training in map-reading, radio transmission, shooting and parachuting. Subsequently, the United States trained 170 "Kamba guerrillas" in batches in Hale Camp, Colorado. The trained "Kamba guerrillas" were airdropped or sneaked into Tibet to execute CIA's plan activities. In May 1958, two agents trained by the Americans in the first batch brought a transceiver to the headquarter, which was set up by the rebel leader Anzhugcang Goinbo Zhaxi in Shannan, to make contact with the CIA. United States air-dropped arms and ammunition, including 20 sub-machine guns, two mortars, 100 rifles, 600 hand-grenades, 600 artillery shells and close to 40,000 bullets, to the rebels in the plateau called Chigu Lama Thang. During the same period, United States clandestinely shipped large amounts of arms and ammunition overland to the rebels entrenched in the Shannan area. Without grassroots level support, the US backed “uprisings” failed one after another.

In contrast, British Foreign Secretary Lord Lansdowne, in a formal instruction he sent out in 1904, called Tibet "a province of the Chinese Empire."

In his speech at the Lok Sabba in 1954, Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru said, "Over the past several hundred years, as far as I know, at no time has any foreign country denied China's sovereignty over Tibet."

In Lhasa, the capital of the Tibet Autonomous Region, a statue of the Tang Dynasty Princess Wen Cheng, who married the Tubo tsampo, king of Tibet, in 641, is still enshrined and worshiped in the Potala Palace. The Tang-Tubo Alliance Monument erected in 823 still stands in the square in front of the Jokhang Monastery.

The monument inscription reads, "The two sovereigns, uncle and nephew, having come to agreement that their territories be united as one, have signed this alliance of great peace to last for eternity! May God and humanity bear witness thereto so that it may be praised from generation to generation."

Today, even the current Dalai Lama refuses to back Tibetan Independence.


2. yuanme left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 1:21 am

So sad, I would vote for Tashi if I had a vote. I hope the indigenous Tibetans can maintain their local culture. A beauty pageant is colorful and could be potentially harmless.


3. ACB left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 2:00 am

You've missed several key facts but I don't have tim e to go into them know. What you seem to have forgotten though is that the Tibetan people don't want to be controlled from Beijing, and that Beijing has is committing slow genocide against Tibet's culture and people.

Conquest and ownership are not the same thing. Nobody has the right to do to Tibet want China is doing.


4. ACB left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 2:03 am

The Dalai Lama hasn't refused to back Tibetan independance, he has made a choice not to give China the excuse that it needs to further crack down on Tibet. He is saving his people by not encouraging thm to fight a battle that cannot be won against a much larger enemy. In his heart, he wants a Tibet that is free of Beijing.

Maybe North Korea should Anex your home and move millions of ethnic Koreans in, force you to choose between giving up your culture or going to jail, and then tell you that what is left of your country is an outdated relic that you are giving up of your own free will. Better yet, maybe Britain should do it.


5. ACBB left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 2:19 am

"what is left of your country is an outdated relic that you are giving up of your own free will."

WOW, are you talking about the feelings of the Iraqis?


6. dalai left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 2:26 am

Why Dalai Lama wears live-frayed human skins and drinks freshly killed slave brain?


7. acb left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 2:29 am

Nope, Tibet and China. Though there are a lot of imilarities, like the body counts and the armored vehicles being sent in by an unwanted invading army that is trying to tell the invadee that the invasion is in its own interests.

Bush and Beijing have a lot in common.


8. yuanme left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 3:32 am

Dalai Lama and Mahatma Gandhi have alot in common, but Dalai Lama has better sense of humor.


9. serf left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 4:37 am

In old Tibet under the dictatorship of Dalai, nothing was known about basic hygiene, sanitation, or the fact that germs caused disease. For ordinary people, there were no outhouses, sewers or toilets. The lamas taught that disease and death were caused by sinful "impiety." They said that chanting, obedience, paying monks money and swallowing prayer scrolls was the only real protection from disease.


10. bert left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 4:55 am

To serf,

  • Most of what you just wrote sounds like China. I was here during SARS and believe me most Chinese also don't know much about "basic hygiene,sanitation or germs" Go watch the Han "cleaners" use a mop to clean a toilet then go clean a classroom with the same mop while picking both nostrils!

  • Most cultures had these "unscientific" ideas at one time or another. Think about it, duh.


11. bert left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 5:02 am

To angry Chinese fool,

  • Do you know about the 200 dead and buried Chinese (Han) soldiers that are in a cemetery in Estonia? Why are they there? Peaceful friendship? I think not.


12. ACB left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 5:05 am

Basicly, you are saying that Tibet was little different from either India and China, or even the slums of London and New york at the time. You're talking about the situation a hundred years ago as if Tibet was particularly backwards when compaired to its neighbors.

At that time there were comparible situations in some places in the world, inlcuding Europe and the Americas. Japan too had many similar problems in the mountains right up until the 50s.

In modern China many millions of people still live in houses with no running water or sanitation and it is certinly not unknown for them to have little idea of hygiene.

Maybe your argument would be a little bettr if the Han had improved the Tibetan lot, but they haven't. In fact they have held Tibet back by destroying their culture, taking their freedoms and even reducing their ability to attract tourist dollars.


13. ACB left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 5:06 am

Bert

Do tell.


14. Serf Pretending to be Bert left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 10:00 am

Serf:

Pretending to be another user isn't very smart when I can track the server that your using to relay your messages down to the Suny Institute of Technology in Utica, New York. P.O. Box 3050, 13504-3050.

The Admins email is millersv@sunyit.edu, would you lke me to email them?


15. Serf Pretending to be ACB left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 10:14 am

Serf: I can track the server that your using down to the Suny Institute of Technology in Utica, New York. P.O. Box 3050, 13504-3050.


16. saucy del mar left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 10:15 am

Interesting comments on this one, however some seem to be off topic.

to serf, so what you are saying is that it is justified that China erase Tibetian culture because they had little understanding of "basic hygiene"?

to angry chinese fool, I think its less about efforts made by western powers to colonize Tibet and more about the Tibetian people feeling they are cultually distinct from China and should be able to maintain that.

"China is apparently been allowed to enter four contestants (Tibet, Hong-Kong, Chinese Taiwan and Mainland China)"

Whats with that?! what happened to one china?


17. The Angry Chinese Blogger left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 4:23 pm

Serf appears to be a bit unhinged, they have been posting messages to this site using other people's tags including my own.

Please be aware that the angry Chinese fool, ACBB, serf are all the same person.


18. bert left...
Wednesday, 13 July 2005 11:23 pm

I have an Estonia friend (historian, anthropologists (spell?)and is now studying Tibetology in China,Tibet and Indiana Un. I've known him for about ten years. I trust him a great deal. He has told me about how ,when the then, USSR and PRC were friends China sent some 3 or 400 Chinese soldiers to help put down a rebellion in Estonia, I guess to give the soldiers some experience. He (my friend) said that in a cemetery near Tallin they are buried there (200). It's one of those lost moments in history. Sorry if that is not enough. I believe my friend and I think he knows what it's like to be occupied my another nation. I think that is one of the reasons he has a great interest in Tibet. Maybe I can get better info about this later.


19. ACB left...
Thursday, 14 July 2005 12:10 am

I'd be very interested in this if you could find out any more.

By the way, I've deleted a comment by Serf that was rather rude about your country and had your name as name in the senders box.


20. serf left...
Thursday, 14 July 2005 1:11 am

To The Angry Chinese: Hehehe, I did remotely loged into a NY school server to post. It is a self-protection mechanism.


21. ACB left...
Thursday, 14 July 2005 1:37 am

Its very traceable, find a different proxy.


22. Bert left...
Thursday, 14 July 2005 11:37 am

Update, To ACB

  • I called my Estonian friend today and he set me straight about that event in Estonia. My dating was off. It happened in 1919. They were early Chinese communists. They wanted to help spread the manifesto bull[Edit}. There was an uprising in Estonia to regain their liberty from Russia. He said that several hundred Chinese went to Estonia, many, maybe more than half were killed by Estonians. At first, my friend states, that Estonians were frightened because they had never seen Chinese before but after the first shock and the fact Chinese couldn't fight very well they (the Estonians) beat them. My friend said more Chinese were sent to fight the Czechs at that time than in Estonia. I was also wrong about the location of the cemetery. It was not in Tallin but another city in Estonia but I am not sure of the name. Maybe it is the second biggest city. Maybe someday these things will be more widely known. He said most Estonians know this event. Estonians are cool, IMHO:)


23. Nick left...
Thursday, 14 July 2005 3:45 pm

I know China bashing is overdone sometimes, but when I read about things like this, it makes me pissed off enough to open my mouth. Who the [Edit} do they think they are? Beijing has no right, no scruples, and no shame. [Edit} them. I hope the people responsible for this and decisions like this kick the bucket soon, and when they die, I hope they die alone and sad. The human cost, the cost of so many hundreds of millions of lives impeded by the daily bull[Edit} it takes to pander to a few crusty [Edit}tards' armed and dangerous egos, is far too much, and they deserve exactly what they'll get when history catches up to them. Their legacies will be soiled, their families most likely are dysfunctional and painful, and their heads are filled with expensive delusions.

I hate them.

That's all


24. Johan left...
Friday, 15 July 2005 8:08 am

Suny Institute of Technology in Utica? That rings a bell.

The comments on this post came from that place.


25. The Angry Chinese Blogger left...
Friday, 15 July 2005 3:49 pm

I think that we've been subjected to the same loon. He's either;

A) A total victom of Chinese Propaganda who can't think for himself. B) Some spotty anemic white American who like to be obnoxious for fun.

Personally, I'm leaning towards him being B.

It's also one thing to be a B*TTHEAD under your own signature, but this J*RK posted messages under three different signatures pretending to be three different people, and worse still posted a rather nasty comment using Berts signature too.


26. bert left...
Friday, 15 July 2005 11:24 pm

What did he say under my signature?


27. ACB left...
Saturday, 16 July 2005 12:59 am

A whole load of nasty stuff about Chinese being superior and inventing toilet paper and westners being so dense that they used to eat their own feacies. Only with a few more cuss words.


28. Martyn left...
Saturday, 16 July 2005 1:09 am

ACB, Shenzhen Ren, Sam_S, has been having similar trouble with a NY troll. I think he's doing something about it. Also The Three T's and Paper Tiger have had the same troll which might be this one here.


29. Martyn left...
Saturday, 16 July 2005 1:42 am

ACB, the commentor above "Angry Chinese Fool" has plagiarised at least some of what they wrote above. I Goolged a couple of random sentences (see Google links below) and they both came up.

I'm just worried that it might be a the same guy that until recently posted on Peking Duck as Mark Anthony Jones (amongst other handles). See TPD post "The Fantabulist" for his IP addresses. Thanks.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&newwindow =1&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Azh-CN%3A official&q=%22and+put+before+the+Chinese +Ministry+of+Foreign+Affairs+a+five-point+demand%22&btnG=Search&meta=

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&newwindow =1&q=%22Tibetan+authorities+into+declaring +independence+with+the+supervision%22&btnG=Search&meta=


30. ACB left...
Saturday, 16 July 2005 3:28 am

I have his IP, and he appears to have used it on other sites, he's also posted under three different names here using the same address. Not too clever that.

Personally, I don't really care if readers cut and paste from other sites, as ar as I'm concerned its the ideas and not the words that matter.


31. bert left...
Saturday, 16 July 2005 5:05 am

Yes, they (Chinese) "invented" "toilet paper" but just the emperor had it (that's the Chinese political system for ya!). The rest of them had to squat with the pigs and use their fingers or leaves. It took an Italian American to create the "roll" that most of the world uses now. We (Western civilization) also are at least smart enough to use a proper working toilet that doesn't keep the poop in the bowl for the next person to see and smell. I guess highly developed cultures like to look at others crap! Go to China, a country that has public toilets one can find with your eyes closed, just follow the smell. Very sorry, I know this is quite off-topic. Go! Miss Tibet!!


32. yuanme left...
Saturday, 16 July 2005 7:20 am

Soh..."we do not want to have anything to do with their (China's) internal issues",... sounds like Soh's group has already sided with China.


33. Martyn left...
Sunday, 17 July 2005 4:58 am

I'm surprised that you don't mind commenters cutting+pasting from academic articles on the www like Angry Chinese Fool. Oh well, it's your site I suppose.


34. ACB left...
Sunday, 17 July 2005 5:35 pm

It does tick me off a bit when somebody does it without using the normal etiquette for posting quotations, but in the end it is the argument that counts, who made it isn't that important.


35. LW left...
Saturday, 23 July 2005 10:20 am

Here is a link that I mentioned before in other blog. It is a antique map for sell on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7337874417&category=3796 0&ssPageName

The map is published in 1901 either in US or Britain. It included Tibet as part of China. In fact, you can check all the maps published before 1950 in US, they all included Tibet as part of China. The issue that Tibet is part of China had never been much of issue before 1950. it was even not of much of issue during cold war. Only after the cold war, it became an issue. A "truth" is told to people -"Chinese invade Tibet in 1950s and has been abusing Tibet people since then". Here are seems a lot of righteous people here. I wish THAT these righteous people would give some explanation on this.


36. ACB left...
Saturday, 23 July 2005 3:23 pm

Both the US and Britain made maps that recognized Korea and Formosa as being part of Japan. Koreans even participated in the Olympic games under the Japanese flag. If you want to use this map as recognition that Tibet is part of China, then by definition you are saying that Chinese Taiwan and Korea were both legitimately Japanese territory too.

At one point in time Tibet was free, its people want to be free again, and Beijing is acting to stop them. Whatver the west says, you cannot change these three facts. You can also not use the hypocrasy of the west to justif antything that China does, the west acts in its own interests.


37. LW left...
Saturday, 23 July 2005 9:20 pm

"Since the annexation of Tibet by post WWII Chinese troops". What is fact and logic behind that statement? Between 16th and 20th century, in which period Tibet has been an independ country?

In fact, I would mind if Tibet is independent country or not. I Just don't like people make up facts and believes themself noble.


38. The Angry Chinese Blogger left...
Saturday, 23 July 2005 9:45 pm

You forget, under the Mongols and the Manchu Tibet was self governing and after the 1913 uprising, Tibet declaired independence from China. It wasn't until Mao's time that Beijing directly controlled Tibet.

Even if you do not count Tibet's declaration of independence, it would still have been naitonalist teretory, and thus it Communist troops would have annexed it from the former nationalist government.

Either way, Communist troops DID move in and annex tibet in the 50s.


39. LW left...
Saturday, 23 July 2005 10:51 pm

If Tibet declare indepedence from China, why the maps published in US in 1930s and 1940s still treat Tibet as a province of China?


40. The Angry Chinese Blogger left...
Sunday, 24 July 2005 12:20 am

Don't ask me, ask the map makers.

You shouldn't go by foreign maps, I've seen European maps that recognize countries in the balkan that no longer exist, there are Japanese maps that show Chinese Taiwan a being inependent from China (some were confiscated from an international school a few month back) when even Taiwanese maps show it being part of China, and there are maps that show places like Isreal with and without conroverial terretories. Indian maps show the Sino-Indian border in different places from Chinese maps. The list goes on.

As things went I don't think that the US recognized Tibet's declaration of independence. as I recall, very few countries did. So if you want an answer, this is probably it.

The fact remains, Tibet declared independence in 1913 with the colapse of the Manchu regime. Prior to that it had an independent government, and in the 50s communist troops took direct control of it.

Where they they took control of a free Tibet that was not part of China, or nationalist Tibet that was, they still took control of it and transfered its reigns of power to authorities Beijing.

We're arguing over samantics, all that really matters is that in the 50s Chinese solders marched in and fought a battle that brought Tibet under the direct control of Beijing.


41. czy left...
Thursday, 4 August 2005 9:26 pm

Tibetan people struggling for dignity is a serious issue. I read lots of China bashing or West bashing in the comments here. I don't see the point of saying how 'advanced' a country has been or what. Whether and how long Tibet was part of the Chinese empire might be an interesting topic for historians. But this is not completely relevant. Most European countries were part of the Russian and Austrian empires, I know of no one that is questioning their independence. The only point is: there is a people out there with a unique culture that don't feel they are part of China, they are not religious extremists, they are not a group of lunatics, they have a territory that is by and large bigger than any European country. None of us is going to change anything in the geopolitical situation. But as individuals, we all should respect the claim of Tibetans to be free. It is sad that most Chinese (and ethnic Chinese) bash the Chinese government for many things but back it on inter-ethnic or international affairs blindly.


42. czy left...
Thursday, 4 August 2005 9:57 pm

Tibetan people struggling for dignity is a serious issue. I read lots of China bashing or West bashing in the comments here. I don't see the point of saying how 'advanced' a country has been or what. Whether and how long Tibet was part of the Chinese empire might be an interesting topic for historians. But this is not completely relevant. Most European countries were part of the Russian and Austrian empires, I know of no one that is questioning their independence. The only point is: there is a people out there with a unique culture that don't feel they are part of China, they are not religious extremists, they are not a group of lunatics, they have a territory that is by and large bigger than any European country. None of us is going to change anything in the geopolitical situation. But as individuals, we all should respect the claim of Tibetans to be free. It is sad that most Chinese (and ethnic Chinese) bash the Chinese government for many things but back it on inter-ethnic or international affairs blindly.


43. kitty bang bang left...
Thursday, 18 August 2005 1:07 am

all you westerners just pretend to know the history of CHINA......but you know only the word CHINA but nothing else...all of you dont even qualify to have a serious talk about CHINA. qestion 1: how many principle race (sub-civilization)that CHINA has?????????????????????? All the CHINA-basher can e-mail me so i can teach you and your mom the real history of CHINA.


44. kitty bang bang left...
Thursday, 18 August 2005 1:10 am

all you westerners just pretend to know the history of CHINA......but you know only the word CHINA but nothing else...all of you dont even qualify to have a serious talk about CHINA. qestion 1: how many principle race (sub-civilization)that CHINA has?????????????????????? All the CHINA-basher can e-mail me so i can teach you and your mom the real history of CHINA.


45. kitty bang bang left...
Thursday, 18 August 2005 1:13 am

all you westerners just pretend to know the history of CHINA......but you know only the word CHINA but nothing else...all of you dont even qualify to have a serious talk about CHINA. qestion 1: how many principle race (sub-civilization)that CHINA has?????????????????????? All the CHINA-basher can e-mail me so i can teach you and your mom the real history of CHINA.


46. ACB left...
Thursday, 18 August 2005 3:49 pm

First things first. We're not all westeners here, don't imagine for one second that all English language bloggers and blog readers are whites.

Second, if you're Chinese, the odds are that when it comes to isues like Tibet, western history is more accurate than what you will read in Chinese text books because, whatever else they are, whites are good at NOT CENSORING CHINESE HISTORY. Washington and Canbra etc teach a more accurate version of Sino-Tibetan history than Beijing does.

Now that that's over, I'm afraid that I'm going to shatter your illusions about me and to tell you that I leant most of my Chinese history and culture IN Chine and from native Chinese teachers. I'm not some fat American tourist who waddled into Shanghai on a package holiday and then decided blog about it. I've been around and stayed around.

As for the ethnic groups, google could tell you that, as could anybody who watches CCTV 4 or 9.


47. ZW left...
Monday, 22 August 2005 7:38 am :: http://williamsz.blogspot.com

I have just found this site after someone recommended it to me on my own blog. I spent a short time in China this year, a few months, working on a project to help the Tibetans within a community to sustain themselves through the skills they have.

I admit to being 'western' and was very naive to the history behind China and Tibet but having spent time in people's homes, seeing their faces and listening to their stories I believe I have had better exposure than any history book in China could have given me. My flatmate and boss was Han Chinese but my Translator was the son of a Tibetan nomad so I got plenty of exposure to both sides.

I have come away safe with the knowledge that the Tibetan culture is one of the most amazing cultures I believe I will ever experience, and it couldn't be further removed from the 'culture' that is now evident in China. I found China a hard place to live in, beacuse of the differences. The lack of compassion and empathy really shocked me but I found both those things when I went to visit the Tibetans.

I agree with you ACB, the Chinese are very blinkered of their own historical truth by the powers that be...but that is their present truth and so who are we to judge people who cannot help themselves see the truth?

Has anyone writing here about the situation been to any of the few towns left that are traditionally Tibetan? If so what were your experiences?


48. HRG left...
Monday, 2 October 2006 12:23 am

The Hans ( Chinese for the rest of the world ) are on a similar Westward drive to exterminate the indigenus popuplation using the railway as it happened in the 19th century in the American continent. But in the 21st century, with Internet and Satellite Connected Mobile phones this adventure will become a dream house built without foundation. But the Tibetans and the people of EAstTurkmanistan should not lose hope. The spirit of Freedom is an everlasting flame. The free countries around are not blind to this ultimate reality. PRC will collapse like the USSR very soon.


49. ACB left...
Monday, 2 October 2006 12:54 am :: http://angrychineseblogger.blog-city.com

I'm afraid that I don't share you're optomism.

China might not be able to surpress the new from Tibet and East Turkistan any more, but it certainly can surpress the people, and the free countries of the world will sit idly by and shake their heads and do nothing because they want cheap Chinese goods, and China's vote on the UN Security Council.

I also don't believe that the PRC wil collapse any time soon, and even when it finally does go, I believe that the opression of the westernmost peoples will go on because so much of the Han population has already been been brainwashed into thinking that they are helping Tibet by running railroads up there and forcing them to trade Tibetan culture in for a slice of the Han racial identity.